taigu "Jason Cox"

taigu "Jason Cox" 
Keith said:

I would prefer waiting until translation of this
Budda classic into vernacular Holo Taiwanese before I care to read it.
I would rather reading English or Japanese translation.
At least they are vernacular, not some showy and flimsy "Bun-gian-bun".

`
Does such a translation into Taiwanese venacular exist? Perhaps some qualified person with the effort and desire could begin working on a sutra translation project. . .`

Jason Cox ?�3ジ� (B5) "People talk sometimes of bestial cruelty, but that's a great injustice and insult to the beasts; a beast can never be so cruel as a man..." --Fyodor Dostoevsky

----Original Message Follows----
From: "keith cheng" 
Reply-To: "keith cheng" 
To: "Hokkchu" , "Andrew T. Kuo" 
CC: "TGB" , "Ti'n Bok-su" 
Subject: Re: 心經/ Heart Sutra
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 00:23:09 +0800
  


taigu "keith cheng" 
  


taigu "keith cheng" 
I think both words (convention and tradition) can have positive or negative
connotation. It all depends on the USERS.
  


As to Taiwanese Holo pronunciation of Heart Sutra by most of Budda temples
in Taiwan, it is just another example of the oppression of the illiterate
class(who does not know Chinese Characters) by the literate class (who know
some Chinese Characters). I would prefer waiting until translation of this
Budda classic into vernacular Holo Taiwanese before I care to read it.
Before that happens, I would rather reading English or Japanese translation.
At least they are vernacular, not some showy and flimsy "Bun-gian-bun".
  


Si-chong
  


  
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hokkchu" 
To: "Andrew T. Kuo" 
Cc: "TGB" ; "Ti'n Bok-su" 
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 8:51 PM
Subject: Re: 心經/ Heart Sutra

taigu "Hokkchu" 
  


taigu "Hokkchu" 
Andrew hiann,
Li kong e eng-kai si Su-tian e kai-soeh.
M-ku goa e lau-su, chiu-si Tai-lam Sin-hak-inn e Tinn Ji-giok

bok-su(kin-ni 

80 hoe)
ka3 goa m-thang iong convention. I kong he piau-si bai2 e mih-kiann.
I tek-piat ka goa kong pun-lai i ma m-chai. Choe-kin chit-e goa-kok lang

ka 

i kong chiah chai.
Tinn bok-su e-hiau kong 5 kok e oe. Kiam kong i e thiann m-tioh?
Goa khak-sit m-chai.
To-sia li ka goa kong.
Babuza
  


----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew T. Kuo 
To: Hokkchu 
Cc: 
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 9:11 AM
Subject: Re: 心經/ Heart Sutra
  


  
> >
> >'Convention' implies something negative, isn't it?
> > I don't like it.
> > How about 'traditional'?
> > Gee, it's Greek to me
> Babuza

-------------------------------------------------------------------------- `--

Babuza i-su, Lip-bun--hiaN kap Jason--hiaN peng-an!
Dear Dr. Babuza, Dr. Levin and Mr. Jason,

Goa kam-kak "conventional" kap "traditional" u chin toa e chha-piat:

"Conventional" si chit e sia-hoe e seng5-oan5 hou7-siong7 "iok-teng7
siok8-seng5 約定俗成" (agreed upon);
"Traditional" si "cheng5-tai7 thoan5 loh8-lai5 e5" (handed down)

"Conventional" u hou lang kam-kak u "chham-u2";
"Traditional" chiu bo5-it-teng7 e7 hou lang kam-kak u7 chham-u2.

I am of the opinion that there is a big difference between the two ` words 

> "conventional" and "traditional," because "conventional" gives me a
feeling
> of "participation in the decision to ..." while "traditional" does not
> necessarily give me that feeling.
>
> Gu-gian kap i e bun-ji, ki-jian si sia-hoe e san-but, si bun-hoa e
iau-sou,
> lan cho hit e sia-hoe e chit hun-chu, beh kam-kak kong "conventional"

a-si 

> "traditional"?
> Che long ai khoaN lan tui hit e sia-hoe e jim-tong--kam.
>
> Since language and its orthography are products of a society, each
> representing a cultural phenomenon of the society, I as a member of the
> soociety may feel positive or negative toward either one phenomenon,
> depending on my feeling of participation in and the accompanying degree

of 

> gratification in identifying with that society.
>
> As to Latin language: Since it is a language no longer used by any
ordinary
> society except those "artificial" ones like the Roman Catholic

priesthood 

or
> some academic groups, which are made-up of different nationalities and
> backgrounds, there can never be a Latin language(tongue) now. However,
there
> can be a Latin in a written form.
>
> Kan-tan kong chiah e, hou tai-ke cho chham-kho.
>
> Peng-an!
>
> Koeh Tekliat
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: levin 
> > To: Jason Cox 
> > Cc: 
> > Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2001 9:12 PM
> > Subject: Re: 心經/ Heart Sutra
> >
> >
> > > taigu "levin" 
> > >
> > > taigu "levin" 
> > > Dear Jason,
> > >
> > > You are right. It's a convention. But, for me, it's a strange
> convention.
> > >
> > > When I was a student, I heard from a Latin professor, who is

Spanish, 

> that
> > > there are many ways of reading Latin, eg., Spanish way, French way,
> German
> > > way, Italian way. Is it so?
> > > Maybe we can also say that there are many ways to read

"wen-yan-wen". 

> And
> > > the "thak-chheh-im" I mentioned is the way Ho-lo-lang read it.
> > >
> > > But, in a way, this way of reading "wen-yan-wen" is a process of
> > > Sinicizing/Mandarinizing Ho-lo.
> > > And the ability to read "wen-yan-wen" this way has been regarded as

a 

> > talent
> > > showing somebody's degree of "education" or "civiliaztion". If you
> cannot
> > > read Han characters this way, you are treated as "illiterate", and
your
> > > language is ragarded as "vulgar'. I heard that somebody even treats
> > > "cha-pou" and "cha-bou" as "vulgar", and they use instead "lam--e"

and 

> > > "lu--e".
> > > Honestly, I detest the value reflected by this phenomenon.
> > >
> > > Of course, my value can be ignored.
> > > But my opinion is that we'd better not to encourage this process of
> > > confusing the Ho-lo language system.
> > > Today, in Taiwan, there are still many institutes and teachers who

are `> so

eager to teach young pupils to study this way of reading
"wen-yan-wen".
I
don't think it will do any good to the revival, revitalization, and
development of Ho-lo or Taiwanese.
My opnion is that we should leave it to the "priests". And the
Taiwanese
or
Ho-lo-oe is already Sinicized/Mandarinized enough.

Best,
Lip-bun

----- Original Message -----
From: Jason Cox
To:
Cc:
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2001 9:28 PM
Subject: Re: 心經/ Heart Sutra

taigu "Jason Cox"

taigu "Jason Cox"
Lip-bun hiann,

You are obviously right about one thing-- the Taigu reading of ` the 

> heart
> > > > sutra is not colloquial speech, is not Taigu grammer, Taigu

syntax, 

> even
> > > > normal Taigu vocabulary.
> > > >
> > > > But basically, some of this early Buddhist literature is
> semi-classical
> > > > (wen-yan-wen) and doesn't belong to one dialect in particular.
> > Naturally,
> > > > like many religions appealing to the common masses, the Buddhist
> > > translators
> > > > also threw in some region's colloquial vocabulary.
> > > >
> > > > And when the sutra is chanted at a temple, especially a temple in
> > Taiwan,
> > > an
> > > > untranslated version is frequently read outloud in Taiwanese (or

so `I

have

been told). This may not be the most effective way of reading ` it, 

> this
> > > may
> > > > not be the best-sounding way, but it is convention.
> > > >
> > > > --Jason
> > > >
> > > > _________________________________________________________________
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> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

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