TL kah POJ e chhiongtut
TL kah POJ e chhiongtut
From: Iunn Un-gian
Date: 2009-03-24 14:05:30
Takke ho :
Suijian chia e buntoe chincheng ikeng u tholun ke a, goa ma bo siuNbeh ke kong, mkoh kinajit koh hoatseng 1-koa taichi, jichhiaN kah KhinhoaN hiaN u koanhe.
Goa chincheng hoanlo e, TL iahbe sengkong, goanlai suiong POJ e lang soah hun choe 2-phai. Chite buntoe, khoaN khilai iahkoh si chin giamtiong.
Goa chitma chin bo-eng, taichi long cho boe oan, soui goa kholeng e 4/15 i-au, chhe sikan tiam Taigubang hoho-a lai kong chit kiaN taichi e kengke, kah goa e siuNhoat.
Goa jim-ui nasi chhuli bo ho, Tailohoe ma e chhuthian chenggi, choseng TLH e hunliat. Si annoa goa e anne kong, inui chincheng KhinhoaN hiaN bat uitioh TLH bo suiong TL, kong beh si lisu, chitma KhinhoaN hiaN si TLH e siong-bu lisu, soui chit-e buntoe itteng e koh toa jipkhi TLH.
Suijian Taibunkoan hitpeng jimtong goa e chohoat, mkoh choeau goa iong POJ sia e bunchiuN, pitsu ai kai cho TL. LMJ susia hethong hiahni choe, 10 kui tang chincheng, goa e LMJ hong kai choe Thong-iong hengsek e LMJ, goa bat kongkhai khonggi, bo siuNtioh chitpai soah si hou kaki e lang kiongpek ai siukai, goa boe kongkhai khonggi, mkoh choattui e kongkhai tholun chit chan taichi.
Inui goa jim-ui nasi bo tholun, POj e suiong e kesiok hou TL appek. Lan na chaiiaN lan bo hunliat e punchiN, si annoa chitkhoan taichi e itchai hoatseng ?
--
Iunn Un-gian 楊允言
Tai-han Chu-kang-he Chou-li kau-siu大漢資工系助理教授
(O) 03-821-0871
Re: Re: [tgb] TL kah POJ e chhiongtut
From: Kei TADA
Date: 2009-03-24 16:12:15
Ungian hiaN,
Goa e chu-i Ungian hiaN sou the-khi chit-e bun-te.
TLPA ah-si TL si, i POJ cho ki-chhou e he-thong.
Su-iong TLPA ah-si TL bo eng-kai ap-pek POJ e su-iong.
TL na jim-tong POJ cho i e bo-chhin, chi-chhi POJ e lang chiah e chi-chhi TL.
Lan na e-sai chham-u hun-hoa le?
TADA
2009/3/24 Iunn Un-gian :
Takke ho :
Suijian chia e buntoe chincheng ikeng u tholun ke a, goa ma bo siuNbeh ke kong, mkoh kinajit koh hoatseng 1-koa taichi, jichhiaN kah KhinhoaN hiaN u koanhe.
Goa chincheng hoanlo e, TL iahbe sengkong, goanlai suiong POJ e lang soah hun choe 2-phai. Chite buntoe, khoaN khilai iahkoh si chin giamtiong.
Goa chitma chin bo-eng, taichi long cho boe oan, soui goa kholeng e 4/15 i-au, chhe sikan tiam Taigubang hoho-a lai kong chit kiaN taichi e kengke, kah goa e siuNhoat.
Goa jim-ui nasi chhuli bo ho, Tailohoe ma e chhuthian chenggi, choseng TLH e hunliat. Si annoa goa e anne kong, inui chincheng KhinhoaN hiaN bat uitioh TLH bo suiong TL, kong beh si lisu, chitma KhinhoaN hiaN si TLH e siong-bu lisu, soui chit-e buntoe itteng e koh toa jipkhi TLH.
Suijian Taibunkoan hitpeng jimtong goa e chohoat, mkoh choeau goa iong POJ sia e bunchiuN, pitsu ai kai cho TL. LMJ susia hethong hiahni choe, 10 kui tang chincheng, goa e LMJ hong kai choe Thong-iong hengsek e LMJ, goa bat kongkhai khonggi, bo siuNtioh chitpai soah si hou kaki e lang kiongpek ai siukai, goa boe kongkhai khonggi, mkoh choattui e kongkhai tholun chit chan taichi.
Inui goa jim-ui nasi bo tholun, POj e suiong e kesiok hou TL appek. Lan na chaiiaN lan bo hunliat e punchiN, si annoa chitkhoan taichi e itchai hoatseng ?
-- Iunn Un-gian 楊允言 Tai-han Chu-kang-he Chou-li kau-siu大漢資工系助理教授 (O) 03-821-0871 http://iug.csie.dahan.edu.tw
Re: Re: [tgb] Re: TL kah POJ e chhiongtut
From: apang.chiu
Date: 2009-03-24 23:45:22
Kok-ui :
Sio-ti kian-gi pat-jit thang-lai tho-lun.
Lan bo hun-liat e pun.
Kat thau ho* khui, m-thang lu phah lu an, pian si-kat,
Kho-lu siong-se.
Pai-thok !
A-pang
PS : Teng-koan/ting-kuan e gi-su POJ kap TL long e thong, kam m-si? ChhiaN/tshiann sam-su.
-----Original message----- From:Kei TADA To:Iunn Un-gian Cc:Tai-gu-bang , Date:Tue, 24 Mar 2009 17:12:15 +0900 Subject:[tgb] Re: TL kah POJ e chhiongtut
Ungian hiaN,
Goa e chu-i Ungian hiaN sou the-khi chit-e bun-te.
TLPA ah-si TL si, i POJ cho ki-chhou e he-thong.
Su-iong TLPA ah-si TL bo eng-kai ap-pek POJ e su-iong.
TL na jim-tong POJ cho i e bo-chhin, chi-chhi POJ e lang chiah e chi-chhi TL.
Lan na e-sai chham-u hun-hoa le?
TADA
2009/3/24 Iunn Un-gian :
Takke ho :
Suijian chia e buntoe chincheng ikeng u tholun ke a, goa ma bo siuNbeh ke kong, mkoh kinajit koh hoatseng 1-koa taichi, jichhiaN kah KhinhoaN hiaN u koanhe.
Goa chincheng hoanlo e, TL iahbe sengkong, goanlai suiong POJ e lang soah hun choe 2-phai. Chite buntoe, khoaN khilai iahkoh si chin giamtiong.
Goa chitma chin bo-eng, taichi long cho boe oan, soui goa kholeng e 4/15 i-au, chhe sikan tiam Taigubang hoho-a lai kong chit kiaN taichi e kengke, kah goa e siuNhoat.
Goa jim-ui nasi chhuli bo ho, Tailohoe ma e chhuthian chenggi, choseng TLH e hunliat. Si annoa goa e anne kong, inui chincheng KhinhoaN hiaN bat uitioh TLH bo suiong TL, kong beh si lisu, chitma KhinhoaN hiaN si TLH e siong-bu lisu, soui chit-e buntoe itteng e koh toa jipkhi TLH.
Suijian Taibunkoan hitpeng jimtong goa e chohoat, mkoh choeau goa iong POJ sia e bunchiuN, pitsu ai kai cho TL. LMJ susia hethong hiahni choe, 10 kui tang chincheng, goa e LMJ hong kai choe Thong-iong hengsek e LMJ, goa bat kongkhai khonggi, bo siuNtioh chitpai soah si hou kaki e lang kiongpek ai siukai, goa boe kongkhai khonggi, mkoh choattui e kongkhai tholun chit chan taichi.
Inui goa jim-ui nasi bo tholun, POj e suiong e kesiok hou TL appek. Lan na chaiiaN lan bo hunliat e punchiN, si annoa chitkhoan taichi e itchai hoatseng ?
-- Iunn Un-gian 楊允言 Tai-han Chu-kang-he Chou-li kau-siu大漢資工系助理教授 (O) 03-821-0871 http://iug.csie.dahan.edu.tw
Re: Re: TL kah POJ e chhiongtut
From: Lau Seng-hian
Date: 2009-03-25 15:20:27
Un-gian 兄：
你講「chiiau lan beh suiong Taibun, in to e iong chiokhau ka lan chhe mahoan」，tse 真正確，我完全贊成，若你所問 e 問題，我頭前 e 文章已經回答--過-a：我當然無 beh 放棄台文，而且無 beh 放棄 kap in hit 陣殖民主義者爭取 tsiah-e 公資源（he long 是咱納 e 稅金--neh，咱 to iau 無學 Thoreau 實行公民無服從 tsuann-a 無 beh 納稅--leh）。
Kah 若咱無 beh 放棄 kap in ti 公機構內底 sio 戰（咱 ma 實際上按呢 teh 做--ah，無，咱是按怎發動遊行去抗議台語認證預算刪除？），咱當然 ai「親像蛇 hiah-nih 靈巧，親像粉鳥 hiah-nih 馴良」，thah 有理由 ka-ti 做球 hoo 對敵來 phah e 可能性？
我 koh 說明--1-pai，我所講--e，單純是「公部門 e 出版品 e 書寫系統」，m 是 beh 講 thong 台灣 thong 世界 e 台文書寫系統。
承接頂頭 tsit 段：事實是，無人 beh 消滅傳統 POJ，ti tsit-e 社會背景--nih，ma 無可能透過法律、暴力來消滅傳統 POJ，當然，有人可能 e 講：資源分配 kap 公部門規範就牽涉著象徵暴力（symbolic violence)，總--是，咱若 beh 按呢問，請先翻頭想看咱 kam beh 放棄介入公部門運作，咱 kam 無想 beh ka tsit-e 文化資本再生產 e 力量 ka seh 轉頭，tshue 機會 ka tsit-e ke-si 搶--過-來。（完全體制外 e 運動若 beh 成功，ti tsit-e 媒體 kap 教育普及 e 背景--nih，只有流血暴力革命，m 知 kam 有人有決心、有興趣 mai kan-tann 用 tshui 唇皮，beh 親身去試？）
傳統 POJ 無受著 Un-gian 兄你所講 e hit 款驚--人 e 壓迫 e 事實是：你 kap 有志所做 e 濟濟 POJ e 資源，包括網路、出版品等等，long iau teh 運作、成長。 Hak-khiam 兄講 i 看著有新 e POJ 出版品 tsiok 歡喜--e，我 ma 是 sio-siang--ah！
上尾，關係分做兩派 e 問題，請 tak-e m-thang be 記得 1 件代誌，tann e TL 支持者內底，除了原底使用傳統 POJ e 人，koh 有過去使用 TLPA 等其他系統 e 人，換話來講，若以 POJ e 角度來看，是使用 POJ e 人變 khah 濟--a，使用其他系統 e 人變 khah 少--a，咱 kam 有分派？我看著--e，是咱 e 整合有效果，咱 tioh khah 細 ji 來維持 tsit-e 成果，ti 政府 kap 民間 tsit 兩部份，繼續 kap 壓迫台文 e 人鬥爭 tsiah tioh。
2009/3/25 Iunn Un-gian
Seng-hian :
Goa beh kong e si, chiiau lan beh suiong Taibun, in to e iong chiokhau ka lan chhe mahoan, sou-i goa jim-ui, kasu lan boai hou in kihoe ka lan chhe mahoan, uiit e honghoat tosi hongkhi Taibun, che tongjian paukoah hongkhi TL, anne li kam beh ? Nasi li kianchhi beh suiong Taibun, goa kiangi li mai iong Ang a siuthiau kong e liiu lai tholun chit-e buntoe.
seksu lunbun, phoksu lunbun, iahkoh kongpoumng e chhutpanphin, li kam kahkteng Khehoe kah Goanchubingu e susia hethong long it-ti ? Goa siuN si bo-iaN lah. Kijian bo-iaN, Taigu e bo itti na e piNchoe hiahni siongtiong e taichi ?
Taigu e pouhun, tuliau TL, KIP ma u pan Taigu phengim pisai, iahkoh u kongpou 400 jisu a, suijian kau chitma goa mbat khoaN tioh Taigubang to 1 e lang u chunchiau KIP e Hanji kuihoan tih suiong, paukoah KhinhoaN hiaN. 1-hong-bin, KIP e hanji kuihoan lan iah bo beh chun-siu, 1-hong-bin, koh u lang kiongliat iaukiu lan ai chunsiu KIP TL e kuihoan, che kam bo chhiongtut ?
Suijian luisu e buntoe lan chincheng ikeng kong ke a, chong--si, KhinhoaN hiaN mna 1-pai thekhi, TL thuisak hiahni khunlan, tosi lin chia e long bo beh chichhi. Goa jim-ui thuisak untong sinkhou, lang ma long u cheng-su, kamkah koh tholun ma bo tekpiat e igi, chong--si, chang hoatseng e taichi, ikeng chhiauke goa etang jim-siu e thengtou a. Goa chinchiaN jim-ui, anne bu lohkhi, TL iahbe thuisak sengkong, goanlai POJ e lang ikeng hunchoe 2-phai.
Kisit, chhiaN takke lai siatsiong taichi e ianpian, goa kong goa kojin to ho.
1-khoan si, goa suiong POJ, chhekliok siong goa ma chichhi TL (che si goa goanlai e phahsng)
lenggoa 1-khoan chengheng si, goa hong ap-pek boetang suiong POJ, ai kai cho TL, liauau goa khaisi sia bunchiuN phoepheng chichhi TL e lang e luntiam, koh ka goa koanli e bangcham iukoan TL e pouhun longchong theh tiau.
Takke khah hibong khoaNtioh siaNme khoan e kiatko ? Goa kamkah KhinhoaN hiaN ittit beh pek goa kiaN te 2 tiau lou, suijian goa iah bo siuNbeh anne cho.
KhinhoaN hiaN bat ka goa kong, lan e Taigubun untong e sitpai, longsi inui lan kaki e lang. Che ma chiaNchiaN si goa e simsiaN, chisi i jim-ui e hia e lang, kah goa jim-ui e hia e lang, si bokang 1-tin lang.
Ungian 3.25
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009 14:15:38 +0800, Lau Seng-hian wrote
Ún-giân 兄：
「系統無一致」，是洪 á 秀柱 in ê 藉口內底 ê 1 ê，當然 m̄ 是 in 心內正港 ê 理由，我 ê 意思是：咱 kám 有必要替 in 製造機會 hō͘ in 起 khang 起 sún？
第 二，我所講 ê「一致」，是指「政府／公部門」出版品頂 kuân 書寫系統 ê 一致，m̄ 是指通台灣一致，你舉 Hak-fa kap 原住民語 ê 例，請想看 māi：Hak-fa kap 原住民語辦認證 tsìn 前，是 m̄ 是 mā 有透過程序做書寫系統 ê 規範？另外，「政府／公部門」ê 出版品內底，kám 有可能無照政府本身所公佈 ê 書寫系統？ 因為 m̄ 管按怎講，「政府」有 teh 出面辦 tsiah-ê 認證考試，kám m̄ 是？
請 m̄-thang 誤解，我當然無 kā 顧面桶取消 hō͘ 母語 tshui-sak ê 政府資源，來怪罪無使用 TL ê 人，tse 無合 tī 我頭前 hit 篇文章 ê 意思，另外，關係李勤岸老師 ê 部份，我無法度替伊發言，我 kan-taⁿ ē-tàng 講我 ka-tī ê 想法。
《台文 BONG 報》kap《台文通訊》lóng 是民間機構，政府對 in ê 刊物發行無用資源支持，in ê 編輯、政策，是董事會等來做決定，封殺傳統 POJ ê 發表空間，相信 m̄ 是 in 採用 TL ê 目標。
2009/3/25 Lau Seng-hian
Ún-giân 兄：
「系統無一致」，是洪 á 秀柱 in ê 藉口內底 ê 1 ê，當然 m̄ 是 in 心內正港 ê 理由，我 ê 意思是：咱 kám 有必要替 in 製造機會 hō͘ in 起 khang 起 sún？
第二，我所講 ê「一致」，是指「政府／公部門」出版品頂 kuân 書寫系統 ê 一致，m̄ 是指通台灣一致，你舉 Hak-fa kap 原住民語 ê 例，請想看 māi：Hak-fa kap 原住民語辦認證 tsìn 前，是 m̄ 是 mā 有透過程序做書寫系統 ê 規範？另外，「政府／公部門」ê 出版品內底，kám 有可能無照政府本身所公佈 ê 書寫系統？ 因為 m̄ 管按怎講，「政府」有 teh 出面辦 tsiah-ê 認證考試，kám m̄ 是？
請 m̄-thang 誤解，我當然無 kā 顧面桶取消 hō͘ 母語 tshui-sak ê 政府資源，來怪罪無使用 TL ê 人，tse 無合 tī 我頭前 hit 篇文章 ê 意思，另外，關係李勤岸老師 ê 部份，我無法度替伊發言，我 kan-taⁿ ē-tàng 講我 ka-tī ê 想法。
《台文 BONG 報》kap《台文通訊》lóng 是民間機構，政府對
2009/3/25 Iunn Un-gian
Seng-hian
:
Kasu suiong bo it-ti to boesai pan jim-cheng, goa e siuNhoat
si
(1) Hoagu boesai pan jim-cheng (Kok-hau ka chu-im, tengbin u e sak
Thongiong, u e sak Hangu phengim, binkan ma iahkoh kui lo
tho
(2) Khehoe kah Goanchubingu ma boesai pan
jim-cheng.
Nasi chite liiu senglip, goa siuN, KhinhoaN hiaN chit-si-lang bo kholeng
tan tioh Taigu jim-cheng e
keng-hui.
Goa boetang liongkai e si, lin ho-pit ka Kok-bin-tong boai poah Taigu
jim-cheng kenghui hou lan, koaichoe ti sia Taigu, mkoh bo suiong TL e lang
!
Kasu lin ka bo iong TL sia Taigu e lang e hoatpiau khongkan long hongsat,
chhun boai sia Taibun, mkoh kholeng khauthau chichhi TL e lang, Taigu jim-cheng
e kenghui simsi to e lohlai ? Taigubun untong nasi chengkeng kiaN kau chit e
toe-pou, li kam jim-ui thuisak TL si sengkong e
?
Ungian
3.25
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009 13:38:46 +0800, Lau Seng-hian
wrote
我 [UTF-8?]礙
想法:
顧面桶 tik 實 [UTF-8?]b� 信用--得。就親像
[UTF-8?]Ha法-khiam 兄 kap [UTF-8?]J贖-kh獺i
[UTF-8?]�栋�雓�--礙嚗鉴県�嗥钏�� beh 放棄民間 [UTF-8?]礙
力量，總--是，咱 [UTF-8?]獺n-ne 講 [UTF-8?]礙 [UTF-8?]�恠�k獺m
就代表咱「完全無 beh
利用政府機構內底 [UTF-8?]礙 資源」，iah 是咱「完全無想 beh
促成政府政策 [UTF-8?]礙 tshui-sak kap
改變？」
頂 [UTF-8?]ku璽n
[UTF-8?]tsit-礙 [UTF-8?]�镣�嚗鹤�n�n[UTF-8?]雓�霁伨�弪� �H，人資格
[UTF-8?]khi�-th簾ng-th簾ng
[UTF-8?]huah-hi鄉 i 無 beh [UTF-8?]hi羅 羅馬字整合，無 beh tshap KIP；若是
[UTF-8?]穫n�嗫�
[UTF-8?]�胯�弪� 人，或人是有 bat 使用(∕爭取∕想 beh 利用) 政府資源
[UTF-8?]礙 人，kap [UTF-8?]i獺u-koh 想 beh 造成政策改變 [UTF-8?]礙 人，beh
[UTF-8?]獺n-tsu獺��
有立場 [UTF-8?]獺n-ne 講，我想
[UTF-8?]b�-hi獺u��
上基本 [UTF-8?]礙 1
點是：政府機構∕公機關 [UTF-8?]礙 [UTF-8?]�箇��睻�tio�h另 一致使用 KIP
[UTF-8?]�啁�嚗鹤》-ne tsiah [UTF-8?]b� [UTF-8?]h要g [UTF-8?]khi�嚗霁揪
[UTF-8?]獺 秀柱 in 刪除台語認證 [UTF-8?]礙
預算 [UTF-8?]礙 時，有起 1 [UTF-8?]礙 攔頭號做「拼音系統 [UTF-8?]i獺u-bu�
[UTF-8?]銝��湛��⊥�閰脰齒隤诎��饥岫��O�k獺m �O咱�k beh
大大典典用行動證明 in [UTF-8?]m� �O teh �O[UTF-8?]hau-si璽u嚗�
除非，咱有影按算 beh 據在 [UTF-8?]tsit-礙 政府去舞，無 beh [UTF-8?]the多 i 1
[UTF-8?]si獺n 錢，無 beh ka sak ka [UTF-8?]tu多嚗鞑访--tsi獺嚗鉴県
[UTF-8?]tio去 翻頭想看咱
beh [UTF-8?]khi� [UTF-8?]si獺��-mih
款立場。
2009/3/26 gmail
Goa siuN. Chit e bun-toe e-sai hun-choe kui-a hong-bin lai
su-kho:
- su-iong chia (khan-siap lang-sou, LMJ i-goan, kap
thai-tou)
- chhui-sak chia (che si thai-tou
bun-toe)
- koaN-hong (chit e tan-ui m-bat chhui-sak koe
LMJ)
Goa beh kong e chu-iau si KIP [UTF-8?]法ap che-teng TL e
pou-hun:
TL kap POJ, i bok-chian kho-ki (tian-chu hoa) lai-kong, choan-oaN si
chin
kan-tan e tai-chi, ia-toh-si tian-chu liu-thoan bo jim-ho e khun-lan
(chhiaN
chham-kho TG SBA), sou-i khoaN--khi-lai chi-si, su-sia kap in-soat
e
soan-tek bun-toe ji-i. Khin-hoaN hiaN it-tit kong KIP kong-pou, lan
tioh
long eng-kai chiau cho. U I khou-sim e sou-chai. M-ku, goa jin-ui KMT e
KIP
chu thau kau boe long m-bat ka lan tau-saN-kang siaN-mih, lan ho-pit
thiaN
in e. Lan pun-lai tioh-si bin-kan e chu-hoat heng-tong. KoaN-hong
bo
the-thiap bin-cheng, che si sit-bin-chia e sim-thai. Lan beh khi hou
I
au--khi. Ki-sit goa si chin m-goan. Koh chai kong, che-teng TL e
ui-goan,
tu-liau Khin-hoaN hiaN, chi-goa kam koh u lang teh chhui-sak LMJ????
[UTF-8?]點n
kam
bat sia koe TGB, iah-si jim-ho bun-chiuN kong beh chhui-sak LMJ ???
[UTF-8?]點n
bo-lang teh eng, choaN chai-iaN POJ kap TL e ho-bai, iah-si
i-keng
lau--loh-lai e chu-goan u siaN-mih. Koe-khi hun-tau e
seng-ko(ChhiaN
chham-kho Un-gian hiaN e bang-cham), In oe 1 oe tioh long hu-siau.
Chin
kho-oN!
Chiau chit e pan-se, Lan bo-kho-leng u kian-choan e chit-jit. Hit jit na
beh
lai, in he KIP koaN-oan iu-koh lai 1 e hoe, ka Li hu-tiau. Chin kin,
Chin
khoai!!!!
Sou-i goa jin-ui, Lan 1) seng chhui-kong LMJ su-sia TGB 2)
Su-iong
siong-choe chu-goan e POJ, ke-siok cheng-ka POJ chu-goan. [UTF-8?]你n-ni,
chiu-sng
KIP hoaiN-pa-pa, lan ma boe tng-kun khi. NA-si toe KIP, chin-chiaN beh
si
m-chai
tang-si.
Khai
----- Original Message
From: "Hak-khiam TiuN"
To: "Tekhoa"
Cc: "Taigibang"
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 7:03
PM
Subject: Re: Fw: [tgb] Re: TL kah POJ e
chhiongtut
Tak-ke
ho:
Ungian hiaN theh-chhut chit e bun-te, goa siuN chin tat-tit
tho-lun.
Tong-jian i kong e POJ & TL e chhiong-tut chi-si POJ & TL koan-he
e
chit-chiong.
E hong u chhiong-tut e kam-kak ma chin ho li-kai, in-ui POJ & TL
e
chi-chhi-chia u
teng-thah,
koh ka-siong pun-te su-iong POJ e Tai-bun chap-chi, c.c. Bong-po,
TBTS
long kai-iong
TL.
Chit-si-kan POJ soah bo saN hoat-piau e
khong-kan.
POJ & TL leng-goa chit e kho-leng e koan-he si kiong-chun,
hun-kang.
Bo su-iau ti chit 2 e he-thong
soan-tek,
2 e long chi-chhi, m-koh ki-jian koaN-hong chi-chhi TL, ti
kau-iok
the-che, cheng-hu e kang-teng tioh chiau
cheng-hu
e kui-teng khi kiaN, chhun-e bin-kan e LMJ ke-siok su-iong POJ, che
si
goa chin-cheng thiaN lang ka goa kong
bi-lai
POJ & TL e koan-he, chit-ma cho-liau an-choaN goa bo-kai
chheng-chho.
Thui-sak TL e lang chin sin-khou, goa kan-ta
ng-bang
m-thang ka POJ e chun-chai, su-iong tong-cho si TL thui-sak sit-pai
e
piau-si. Goa ko-jin e-tang tong-si chi-chhi POJ &
TL,
m-koh na iau-kiu goa hong-khi POJ chiah sng si chi-chhi TL, goa
jin-ui
bo pit-iau. Goa tak-pai khi chheh-kiok na
khoaN-tioh
koh u POJ e ji-tian ah-si chheh chhut-pan long e chin hoaN-hi.
Bun-ji
e seN-mia-lek bo hoat-tou thau-koe cheng-hu e hoat-leng lai
ui-chhi,
bin-kan chu-hoat-seng e, tng-ki-e su-iong chiah-si
tiong-iau.
I-siong 2 chiong POJ & TL e koan-he tak-ke bong chham-kho,
kho-leng
koh u ki-tha e
kho-leng-seng.
Hak-khiam
2009/3/25 Tekhoa :
Apang hiaN kap
tak-e:
goa chanseng ai
tholun
1) kian-na tu tioh chit-khoan bunte, chong--si e u lang khng kong
au-jit-a
chiah
tholun
[UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� kiatko iaubpe tan kau au-jit-a, bunte mna bo kaikoat,
soah ju bun
ju
giamtiong
2) "hun-liat" chit-hang taichi punlai to bian khoan kah hiah
tang
[UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]真i tioh thoankiat boai ka taichi kong
beng,
[UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]群itche siong tianto e checho
hunliat
3) chiaN che lang long ittit kong TL iah si POJ tak-e beh sia toh 1 tho
to
sia toh 1
tho
[UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� kong si bo m-tioh, mkoh che oe soah ma siuN koe
khang
[UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� na bo, si anchoaN e ittit u iaukiu patlang sia/kai
cho TL e
chengheng
chhut-hian?
4) tenghoe tholun kau chit-e bunte e si, goa u the-chhut
kong:
[UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� si, bo mtioh, takl-e chuiu soantek beh iong toh 1
tho
[UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� mkoh tauko--chhut-khi toa pouhun e souchai long
iaukiu ai iong
TL
[UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� anne, chit khoan "chu-iu5" u siaNmih
i-gi?
Tekhoa
----- Original Message
寄件者:
apang.chiu
收件者:
副本: TGB(G) ; Tavokan Kh㮮 Hu䁢ῠ ; Iunn
Un-gian
傳送日期: 2009年3月24日 下午
11:45
主旨: [tgb] Re: TL kah POJ e
chhiongtut
Kok-ui
:
Sio-ti kian-gi pat-jit thang-lai
tho-lun.
Lan bo hun-liat e
pun.
Kat thau ho* khui, m-thang lu phah lu an, pian
si-kat,
Kho-lu
siong-se.
Pai-thok
!
A-pang
PS : Teng-koan/ting-kuan e gi-su POJ kap TL long e thong, kam
m-si?
ChhiaN/tshiann
sam-su.
-----Original
message-----
From:Kei TADA
To:Iunn Un-gian
Cc:Tai-gu-bang ,
Date:Tue, 24 Mar 2009 17:12:15
+0900
Subject:[tgb] Re: TL kah POJ e
chhiongtut
Ungian
hiaN,
Goa e chu-i Ungian hiaN sou the-khi chit-e
bun-te.
TLPA ah-si TL si, i POJ cho ki-chhou e
he-thong.
Su-iong TLPA ah-si TL bo eng-kai ap-pek POJ e
su-iong.
TL na jim-tong POJ cho i e bo-chhin, chi-chhi POJ e lang chiah e
chi-chhi
TL.
Lan na e-sai chham-u hun-hoa
le?
TADA
2009/3/24 Iunn Un-gian :
Takke ho
:
Suijian chia e buntoe chincheng ikeng u tholun ke a, goa ma bo siuNbeh
ke
kong, mkoh kinajit koh hoatseng 1-koa taichi, jichhiaN kah KhinhoaN
hiaN
u
koanhe.
Goa chincheng hoanlo e, TL iahbe sengkong, goanlai suiong POJ e lang
soah
hun choe 2-phai. Chite buntoe, khoaN khilai iahkoh si chin
giamtiong.
Goa chitma chin bo-eng, taichi long cho boe oan, soui goa kholeng e
4/15
i-au, chhe sikan tiam Taigubang hoho-a lai kong chit kiaN taichi
e
kengke,
kah goa e
siuNhoat.
Goa jim-ui nasi chhuli bo ho, Tailohoe ma e chhuthian chenggi,
choseng
TLH
e
hunliat. Si annoa goa e anne kong, inui chincheng KhinhoaN hiaN
bat
uitioh
TLH bo suiong TL, kong beh si lisu, chitma KhinhoaN hiaN si TLH
e
siong-bu
lisu, soui chit-e buntoe itteng e koh toa jipkhi
TLH.
Suijian Taibunkoan hitpeng jimtong goa e chohoat, mkoh choeau goa
iong
POJ
sia e bunchiuN, pitsu ai kai cho TL. LMJ susia hethong hiahni choe,
10
kui
tang chincheng, goa e LMJ hong kai choe Thong-iong hengsek e LMJ, goa
bat
kongkhai khonggi, bo siuNtioh chitpai soah si hou kaki e lang kiongpek
ai
siukai, goa boe kongkhai khonggi, mkoh choattui e kongkhai tholun
chit
chan
taichi.
Inui goa jim-ui nasi bo tholun, POj e suiong e kesiok hou TL appek.
Lan
na
chaiiaN lan bo hunliat e punchiN, si annoa chitkhoan taichi e
itchai
hoatseng
?
--
Iunn Un-gian
楊允言
Tai-han Chu-kang-he Chou-li
kau-siu大漢資工系助理教授
(O)
03-821-0871
--
Lau,
Seng-hian
[UTF-8?]嚚靁访 koh 在定，ma
[UTF-8?]�⊥粐憭綨�嚚�
--
Iunn Un-gian 楊允言
Tai-han Chu-kang-he Chou-li kau-siu大漢資工系助理教授
(O) 03-821-0871
--
Lau, Seng-hian
～無 koh 在定，ma 無放外外～
--
Lau, Seng-hian
～無 koh 在定，ma 無放外外～
--
Iunn Un-gian 楊允言
Tai-han Chu-kang-he Chou-li kau-siu大漢資工系助理教授
(O) 03-821-0871
-- Lau, Seng-hian
～無 koh 在定，ma 無放外外～
Re: Re: [tgb] Re: TL kah POJ e chhiongtut
From: Tekhoa
Date: 2009-03-25 16:46:47
Seng-hian hiaN
li e kong-hoat siuN-koe ui-sim--a (唯心)
Tekhoa
----- Original Message -----
寄件者: Lau Seng-hian
收件者: 台語網
傳送日期: 2009年3月25日 下午 03:20
主旨: [tgb] Re: TL kah POJ e chhiongtut
Un-gian 兄：
你講「chiiau lan beh suiong Taibun, in to e iong chiokhau ka lan chhe mahoan」，tse 真正確，我完全贊成，若你所問 e 問題，我頭前 e 文章已經回答--過-a：我當然無 beh 放棄台文，而且無 beh 放棄 kap in hit 陣殖民主義者爭取 tsiah-e 公資源（he long 是咱納 e 稅金--neh，咱 to iau 無學 Thoreau 實行公民無服從 tsuann-a 無 beh 納稅--leh）。
Kah 若咱無 beh 放棄 kap in ti 公機構內底 sio 戰（咱 ma 實際上按呢 teh 做--ah，無，咱是按怎發動遊行去抗議台語認證預算刪除？），咱當然 ai「親像蛇 hiah-nih 靈巧，親像粉鳥 hiah-nih 馴良」，thah 有理由 ka-ti 做球 hoo 對敵來 phah e 可能性？
我 koh 說明--1-pai，我所講--e，單純是「公部門 e 出版品 e 書寫系統」，m 是 beh 講 thong 台灣 thong 世界 e 台文書寫系統。
承接頂頭 tsit 段：事實是，無人 beh 消滅傳統 POJ，ti tsit-e 社會背景--nih，ma 無可能透過法律、暴力來消滅傳統 POJ，當然，有人可能 e 講：資源分配 kap 公部門規範就牽涉著象徵暴力（symbolic violence)，總--是，咱若 beh 按呢問，請先翻頭想看咱 kam beh 放棄介入公部門運作，咱 kam 無想 beh ka tsit-e 文化資本再生產 e 力量 ka seh 轉頭，tshue 機會 ka tsit-e ke-si 搶--過-來。（完全體制外 e 運動若 beh 成功，ti tsit-e 媒體 kap 教育普及 e 背景--nih，只有流血暴力革命，m 知 kam 有人有決心、有興趣 mai kan-tann 用 tshui 唇皮，beh 親身去試？）
傳統 POJ 無受著 Un-gian 兄你所講 e hit 款驚--人 e 壓迫 e 事實是：你 kap 有志所做 e 濟濟 POJ e 資源，包括網路、出版品等等，long iau teh 運作、成長。 Hak-khiam 兄講 i 看著有新 e POJ 出版品 tsiok 歡喜--e，我 ma 是 sio-siang--ah！
上尾，關係分做兩派 e 問題，請 tak-e m-thang be 記得 1 件代誌，tann e TL 支持者內底，除了原底使用傳統 POJ e 人，koh 有過去使用 TLPA 等其他系統 e 人，換話來講，若以 POJ e 角度來看，是使用 POJ e 人變 khah 濟--a，使用其他系統 e 人變 khah 少--a，咱 kam 有分派？我看著--e，是咱 e 整合有效果，咱 tioh khah 細 ji 來維持 tsit-e 成果，ti 政府 kap 民間 tsit 兩部份，繼續 kap 壓迫台文 e 人鬥爭 tsiah tioh。
2009/3/25 Iunn Un-gian
Seng-hian :
Goa beh kong e si, chiiau lan beh suiong Taibun, in to e iong chiokhau ka lan chhe mahoan, sou-i goa jim-ui, kasu lan boai hou in kihoe ka lan chhe mahoan, uiit e honghoat tosi hongkhi Taibun, che tongjian paukoah hongkhi TL, anne li kam beh ? Nasi li kianchhi beh suiong Taibun, goa kiangi li mai iong Ang a siuthiau kong e liiu lai tholun chit-e buntoe.
seksu lunbun, phoksu lunbun, iahkoh kongpoumng e chhutpanphin, li kam kahkteng Khehoe kah Goanchubingu e susia hethong long it-ti ? Goa siuN si bo-iaN lah. Kijian bo-iaN, Taigu e bo itti na e piNchoe hiahni siongtiong e taichi ?
Taigu e pouhun, tuliau TL, KIP ma u pan Taigu phengim pisai, iahkoh u kongpou 400 jisu a, suijian kau chitma goa mbat khoaN tioh Taigubang to 1 e lang u chunchiau KIP e Hanji kuihoan tih suiong, paukoah KhinhoaN hiaN. 1-hong-bin, KIP e hanji kuihoan lan iah bo beh chun-siu, 1-hong-bin, koh u lang kiongliat iaukiu lan ai chunsiu KIP TL e kuihoan, che kam bo chhiongtut ?
Suijian luisu e buntoe lan chincheng ikeng kong ke a, chong--si, KhinhoaN hiaN mna 1-pai thekhi, TL thuisak hiahni khunlan, tosi lin chia e long bo beh chichhi. Goa jim-ui thuisak untong sinkhou, lang ma long u cheng-su, kamkah koh tholun ma bo tekpiat e igi, chong--si, chang hoatseng e taichi, ikeng chhiauke goa etang jim-siu e thengtou a. Goa chinchiaN jim-ui, anne bu lohkhi, TL iahbe thuisak sengkong, goanlai POJ e lang ikeng hunchoe 2-phai.
Kisit, chhiaN takke lai siatsiong taichi e ianpian, goa kong goa kojin to ho. 1-khoan si, goa suiong POJ, chhekliok siong goa ma chichhi TL (che si goa goanlai e phahsng) lenggoa 1-khoan chengheng si, goa hong ap-pek boetang suiong POJ, ai kai cho TL, liauau goa khaisi sia bunchiuN phoepheng chichhi TL e lang e luntiam, koh ka goa koanli e bangcham iukoan TL e pouhun longchong theh tiau.
Takke khah hibong khoaNtioh siaNme khoan e kiatko ? Goa kamkah KhinhoaN hiaN ittit beh pek goa kiaN te 2 tiau lou, suijian goa iah bo siuNbeh anne cho.
KhinhoaN hiaN bat ka goa kong, lan e Taigubun untong e sitpai, longsi inui lan kaki e lang. Che ma chiaNchiaN si goa e simsiaN, chisi i jim-ui e hia e lang, kah goa jim-ui e hia e lang, si bokang 1-tin lang.
Ungian 3.25
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009 14:15:38 +0800, Lau Seng-hian wrote
Ún-giân 兄：
「系統無一致」，是洪 á 秀柱 in ê 藉口內底 ê 1 ê，當然 m̄ 是 in 心內正港 ê 理由，我 ê 意思是：咱 kám 有必要替 in 製造機會 hō͘ in 起 khang 起 sún？
第二，我所講 ê「一致」，是指「政府／公部門」出版品頂 kuân 書寫系統 ê 一致，m̄ 是指通台灣一致，你舉 Hak-fa kap 原住民語 ê 例，請想看 māi：Hak-fa kap 原住民語辦認證 tsìn 前，是 m̄ 是 mā 有透過程序做書寫系統 ê 規範？另外，「政府／公部門」ê 出版品內底，kám 有可能無照政府本身所公佈 ê 書寫系統？ 因為 m̄ 管按怎講，「政府」有 teh 出面辦 tsiah-ê 認證考試，kám m̄ 是？
請 m̄-thang 誤解，我當然無 kā 顧面桶取消 hō͘ 母語 tshui-sak ê 政府資源，來怪罪無使用 TL ê 人，tse 無合 tī 我頭前 hit 篇文章 ê 意思，另外，關係李勤岸老師 ê 部份，我無法度替伊發言，我 kan-taⁿ ē-tàng 講我 ka-tī ê 想法。
《台文 BONG 報》kap《台文通訊》lóng 是民間機構，政府對 in ê 刊物發行無用資源支持，in ê 編輯、政策，是董事會等來做決定，封殺傳統 POJ ê 發表空間，相信 m̄ 是 in 採用 TL ê 目標。
2009/3/25 Lau Seng-hian
Ún-giân 兄：「系統無一致」，是洪 á 秀柱 in ê 藉口內底 ê 1 ê，當然 m̄ 是 in 心內正港 ê 理由，我 ê 意思是：咱 kám 有必要替 in 製造機會 hō͘ in 起 khang 起 sún？
第二，我所講 ê「一致」，是指「政府／公部門」出版品頂 kuân 書寫系統 ê 一致，m̄ 是指通台灣一致，你舉 Hak-fa kap 原住民語 ê 例，請想看 māi：Hak-fa kap 原住民語辦認證 tsìn 前，是 m̄ 是 mā 有透過程序做書寫系統 ê 規範？另外，「政府／公部門」ê 出版品內底，kám 有可能無照政府本身所公佈 ê 書寫系統？ 因為 m̄ 管按怎講，「政府」有 teh 出面辦 tsiah-ê 認證考試，kám m̄ 是？請 m̄-thang 誤解，我當然無 kā 顧面桶取消 hō͘ 母語 tshui-sak ê 政府資源，來怪罪無使用 TL ê 人，tse 無合 tī 我頭前 hit 篇文章 ê 意思，另外，關係李勤岸老師 ê 部份，我無法度替伊發言，我 kan-taⁿ ē-tàng 講我 ka-tī ê 想法。
《台文 BONG 報》kap《台文通訊》lóng 是民間機構，政府對
2009/3/25 Iunn Un-gian
Seng-hian :
Kasu suiong bo it-ti to boesai pan jim-cheng, goa e siuNhoat si (1) Hoagu boesai pan jim-cheng (Kok-hau ka chu-im, tengbin u e sak Thongiong, u e sak Hangu phengim, binkan ma iahkoh kui lo tho
(2) Khehoe kah Goanchubingu ma boesai pan jim-cheng. Nasi chite liiu senglip, goa siuN, KhinhoaN hiaN chit-si-lang bo kholeng tan tioh Taigu jim-cheng e keng-hui.Goa boetang liongkai e si, lin ho-pit ka Kok-bin-tong boai poah Taigu jim-cheng kenghui hou lan, koaichoe ti sia Taigu, mkoh bo suiong TL e lang !
Kasu lin ka bo iong TL sia Taigu e lang e hoatpiau khongkan long hongsat, chhun boai sia Taibun, mkoh kholeng khauthau chichhi TL e lang, Taigu jim-cheng e kenghui simsi to e lohlai ? Taigubun untong nasi chengkeng kiaN kau chit e toe-pou, li kam jim-ui thuisak TL si sengkong e ?
Ungian 3.25
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009 13:38:46 +0800, Lau Seng-hian wrote
我 [UTF-8?]礙 想法:
> 顧面桶 tik 實 [UTF-8?]b� 信用--得。就親像 [UTF-8?]Ha法-khiam 兄 kap [UTF-8?]J贖-kh獺i [UTF-8?]�栋�雓�--礙嚗鉴県�嗥钏�� beh 放棄民間 [UTF-8?]礙 力量，總--是，咱 [UTF-8?]獺n-ne 講 [UTF-8?]礙 [UTF-8?]�恠�k獺m 就代表咱法完全無 beh 利用政府機構內底 [UTF-8?]礙 資源」，iah 是咱「完全無想 beh 促成政府政策 [UTF-8?]礙 tshui-sak kap 改變？」 >
頂 [UTF-8?]ku璽n [UTF-8?]tsit-礙 [UTF-8?]�镣�嚗鹤�n �n [UTF-8?]雓�霁伨�弪� 人，有資格 [UTF�H8?]khi�-th簾ng-th簾ng [UTF-8?]huah-hi鄉 i 無 beh [UTF-8?]hi羅 羅馬字整合，無 beh tshap KIP；若是 [UTF-8?]穫n�嗫� [UTF-8?]�胯�弪� 人，或者是有 bat 使用(∕爭取∕想 beh 利用) 政府資源 [UTF-8?]礙 人，kap [UTF-8?]i獺u-koh 想 beh 造成政策改變 [UTF-8?]礙 人，beh [UTF-8?]獺n-tsu獺�� 有立場 [UTF-8?]獺n-ne 講，我想 [UTF-8?]b�-hi獺u��
上基本 [UTF-8?]礙 1 點是：政府機構∕公機關 [UTF-8?]礙 [UTF-8?]�箇��睻�tio去 一致使用 K�tP [UTF-8?]�啁�嚗鹤》-ne tsiah [UTF-8?]b� [UTF-8?]h要g [UTF-8?]khi�嚗霁揪 [UTF-8?]獺 秀柱 in 刪除台語認證 [UTF-8?]礙 預算 [UTF-8?]礙 時，有起 1 [UTF-8?]礙 攔頭號做「拼音系統 [UTF-8?]i獺u-bu� [UTF-8?]銝��湛��⊥�閰脰齒隤诎��饥岫��O�k獺m 講咱 beh �O�j法典用行動證明 in [UTF-8?]m� �O teh �O[UTF-8?]hau-si璽u嚗�
除非，咱有影按算 beh 據在 [UTF-8?]tsit-礙 政府去舞，無 beh [UTF-8?]the多 i 1 [UTF-8?]si獺n 錢，無 beh ka sak ka [UTF-8?]tu多嚗鞑访--tsi獺嚗鉴県 [UTF-8?]tio去 翻頭想看咱 beh [UTF-8?]khi� [UTF-8?]si獺��-mih 款立場。
2009/3/26 gmail
Goa siuN. Chit e bun-toe e-sai hun-choe kui-a hong-bin lai su-kho:
- su-iong chia (khan-siap lang-sou, LMJ i-goan, kap thai-tou)
- chhui-sak chia (che si thai-tou bun-toe)
- koaN-hong (chit e tan-ui m-bat chhui-sak koe LMJ) Goa beh kong e chu-iau si KIP [UTF-8?]法ap che-teng TL e pou-hun:
TL kap POJ, i bok-chian kho-ki (tian-chu hoa) lai-kong, choan-oaN si chin kan-tan e tai-chi, ia-toh-si tian-chu liu-thoan bo jim-ho e khun-lan (chhiaN
chham-kho TG SBA), sou-i khoaN--khi-lai chi-si, su-sia kap in-soat e soan-tek bun-toe ji-i. Khin-hoaN hiaN it-tit kong KIP kong-pou, lan tioh long eng-kai chiau cho. U I khou-sim e sou-chai. M-ku, goa jin-ui KMT e KIP
chu thau kau boe long m-bat ka lan tau-saN-kang siaN-mih, lan ho-pit thiaN in e. Lan pun-lai tioh-si bin-kan e chu-hoat heng-tong. KoaN-hong bo the-thiap bin-cheng, che si sit-bin-chia e sim-thai. Lan beh khi hou I au--khi. Ki-sit goa si chin m-goan. Koh chai kong, che-teng TL e ui-goan,
tu-liau Khin-hoaN hiaN, chi-goa kam koh u lang teh chhui-sak LMJ???? [UTF-8?]點n kam bat sia koe TGB, iah-si jim-ho bun-chiuN kong beh chhui-sak LMJ ??? [UTF-8?]點n
bo-lang teh eng, choaN chai-iaN POJ kap TL e ho-bai, iah-si i-keng lau--loh-lai e chu-goan u siaN-mih. Koe-khi hun-tau e seng-ko(ChhiaN chham-kho Un-gian hiaN e bang-cham), In oe 1 oe tioh long hu-siau. Chin
> kho-oN! > Chiau chit e pan-se, Lan bo-kho-leng u kian-choan e chit-jit. Hit jit na beh > lai, in he KIP koaN-oan iu-koh lai 1 e hoe, ka Li hu-tiau. Chin kin, Chin > khoai!!!! > Sou-i goa jin-ui, Lan 1) seng chhui-kong LMJ su-sia TGB 2) Su-iong > siong-choe chu-goan e POJ, ke-siok cheng-ka POJ chu-goan. [UTF-8?]你n-ni, chiu-sng
KIP hoaiN-pa-pa, lan ma boe tng-kun khi. NA-si toe KIP, chin-chiaN beh si m-chai tang-si.
> Khai > > ----- Original Message -----
From: "Hak-khiam TiuN"
To: "Tekhoa"
Cc: "Taigibang"
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 7:03 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [tgb] Re: TL kah POJ e chhiongtut
Tak-ke ho:
Ungian hiaN theh-chhut chit e bun-te, goa siuN chin tat-tit tho-lun. Tong-jian i kong e POJ & TL e chhiong-tut chi-si POJ & TL koan-he e
chit-chiong. E hong u chhiong-tut e kam-kak ma chin ho li-kai, in-ui POJ & TL e chi-chhi-chia u teng-thah,
koh ka-siong pun-te su-iong POJ e Tai-bun chap-chi, c.c. Bong-po, TBTS long kai-iong TL.
Chit-si-kan POJ soah bo saN hoat-piau e khong-kan.
POJ & TL leng-goa chit e kho-leng e koan-he si kiong-chun, hun-kang. Bo su-iau ti chit 2 e he-thong soan-tek, 2 e long chi-chhi, m-koh ki-jian koaN-hong chi-chhi TL, ti kau-iok the-che, cheng-hu e kang-teng tioh chiau cheng-hu e kui-teng khi kiaN, chhun-e bin-kan e LMJ ke-siok su-iong POJ, che si goa chin-cheng thiaN lang ka goa kong bi-lai POJ & TL e koan-he, chit-ma cho-liau an-choaN goa bo-kai chheng-chho. Thui-sak TL e lang chin sin-khou, goa kan-ta ng-bang m-thang ka POJ e chun-chai, su-iong tong-cho si TL thui-sak sit-pai e
piau-si. Goa ko-jin e-tang tong-si chi-chhi POJ & TL,> m-koh na iau-kiu goa hong-khi POJ chiah sng si chi-chhi TL, goa jin-ui > bo pit-iau. Goa tak-pai khi chheh-kiok na khoaN-tioh > koh u POJ e ji-tian ah-si chheh chhut-pan long e chin hoaN-hi. Bun-ji > e seN-mia-lek bo hoat-tou thau-koe cheng-hu e hoat-leng lai ui-chhi, > bin-kan chu-hoat-seng e, tng-ki-e su-iong chiah-si tiong-iau. >
I-siong 2 chiong POJ & TL e koan-he tak-ke bong chham-kho, kho-leng koh u ki-tha e kho-leng-seng.
Hak-khiam
2009/3/25 Tekhoa : > Apang hiaN kap tak-e: > > goa chanseng ai tholun > > 1) kian-na tu tioh chit-khoan bunte, chong--si e u lang khng kong au-jit-a > chiah tholun > [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� kiatko iaubpe tan kau au-jit-a, bunte mna bo kaikoat, soah ju bun ju
giamtiong
2) "hun-liat" chit-hang taichi punlai to bian khoan kah hiah tang
[UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]真i tioh thoankiat boai ka taichi kong beng, [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]群itche siong tianto e checho hunliat
> > 3) chiaN che lang long ittit kong TL iah si POJ tak-e beh sia toh 1 tho to > sia toh 1 tho
[UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� kong si bo m-tioh, mkoh che oe soah ma siuN koe khang [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� na bo, si anchoaN e ittit u iaukiu patlang sia/kai cho TL e chengheng
chhut-hian?
> > 4) tenghoe tholun kau chit-e bunte e si, goa u the-chhut kong: > > [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� si, bo mtioh, takl-e chuiu soantek beh iong toh 1 tho > > [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� mkoh tauko--chhut-khi toa pouhun e souchai long iaukiu ai iong TL > > [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� anne, chit khoan "chu-iu5" u siaNmih i-gi?> Tekhoa > > > ----- Original Message ----- > 寄件者: apang.chiu
收件者:
副本: TGB(G) ; Tavokan Kh㮮 Hu䁢ῠ ; Iunn Un-gian
傳送日期: 2009年3月24日 下午 11:45 主旨: [tgb] Re: TL kah POJ e chhiongtut Kok-ui :
> > Sio-ti kian-gi pat-jit thang-lai tho-lun. > > Lan bo hun-liat e pun. > > Kat thau ho* khui, m-thang lu phah lu an, pian si-kat, > > Kho-lu siong-se.
Pai-thok !
A-pangPS : Teng-koan/ting-kuan e gi-su POJ kap TL long e thong, kam m-si?
ChhiaN/tshiann sam-su. -----Original message-----
From:Kei TADA
To:Iunn Un-gianCc:Tai-gu-bang ,
Date:Tue, 24 Mar 2009 17:12:15 +0900
> Subject:[tgb] Re: TL kah POJ e chhiongtut >
Ungian hiaN,
Goa e chu-i Ungian hiaN sou the-khi chit-e bun-te.
TLPA ah-si TL si, i POJ cho ki-chhou e he-thong.
Su-iong TLPA ah-si TL bo eng-kai ap-pek POJ e su-iong.
TL na jim-tong POJ cho i e bo-chhin, chi-chhi POJ e lang chiah e chi-chhi TL.
Lan na e-sai chham-u hun-hoa le?
TADA
2009/3/24 Iunn Un-gian : > Takke ho : > > Suijian chia e buntoe chincheng ikeng u tholun ke a, goa ma bo siuNbeh ke> >> kong, mkoh kinajit koh hoatseng 1-koa taichi, jichhiaN kah KhinhoaN hiaN > >> u > >> koanhe. > >> > >> Goa chincheng hoanlo e, TL iahbe sengkong, goanlai suiong POJ e lang soah > >> hun choe 2-phai. Chite buntoe, khoaN khilai iahkoh si chin giamtiong. > >> > >> Goa chitma chin bo-eng, taichi long cho boe oan, soui goa kholeng e 4/15
i-au, chhe sikan tiam Taigubang hoho-a lai kong chit kiaN taichi e kengke,
>> kah goa e siuNhoat. >> >> Goa jim-ui nasi chhuli bo ho, Tailohoe ma e chhuthian chenggi, choseng >> TLH >> e
hunliat. Si annoa goa e anne kong, inui chincheng KhinhoaN hiaN bat uitioh
> >> TLH bo suiong TL, kong beh si lisu, chitma KhinhoaN hiaN si TLH e > >> siong-bu > >> lisu, soui chit-e buntoe itteng e koh toa jipkhi TLH. > >>
Suijian Taibunkoan hitpeng jimtong goa e chohoat, mkoh choeau goa iong POJ
>> sia e bunchiuN, pitsu ai kai cho TL. LMJ susia hethong hiahni choe, 10 >> kui >> tang chincheng, goa e LMJ hong kai choe Thong-iong hengsek e LMJ, goa bat
kongkhai khonggi, bo siuNtioh chitpai soah si hou kaki e lang kiongpek ai siukai, goa boe kongkhai khonggi, mkoh choattui e kongkhai tholun chit
>> chan >> taichi. >>
Inui goa jim-ui nasi bo tholun, POj e suiong e kesiok hou TL appek. Lan na
>> chaiiaN lan bo hunliat e punchiN, si annoa chitkhoan taichi e itchai >> hoatseng ? >>
-- Iunn Un-gian 楊允言
Tai-han Chu-kang-he Chou-li kau-siu大漢資工系助理教授
(O) 03-821-0871 http://iug.csie.dahan.edu.tw
> > >
--
Lau, Seng-hian[UTF-8?]嚚靁访 koh 在定，ma [UTF-8?]�⊥粐憭綨�嚚�
-- Iunn Un-gian 楊允言 Tai-han Chu-kang-he Chou-li kau-siu大漢資工系助理教授 (O) 03-821-0871 [http://iug.csie.dahan.edu.tw](http://iug.csie.dahan.edu.tw/)
-- Lau, Seng-hian
～無 koh 在定，ma 無放外外～--
Lau, Seng-hian
～無 koh 在定，ma 無放外外～
-- Iunn Un-gian 楊允言 Tai-han Chu-kang-he Chou-li kau-siu大漢資工系助理教授 (O) 03-821-0871 http://iug.csie.dahan.edu.tw
-- Lau, Seng-hian
～無 koh 在定，ma 無放外外～
Re: Re: [tgb] Re: TL kah POJ e chhiongtut
From: Lau Seng-hian
Date: 2009-03-25 16:53:14
Tekhoa,
你講 tioh 我無了解 e 部份，請 thiah 白，我想 beh 學。
多謝！
Seng-hian
2009/3/25 Tekhoa
Seng-hian hiaN
li e kong-hoat siuN-koe ui-sim--a (唯心)
Tekhoa
----- Original Message -----
寄件者: Lau Seng-hian
收件者: 台語網
傳送日期: 2009年3月25日 下午 03:20
主旨: [tgb] Re: TL kah POJ e chhiongtut
Un-gian 兄：
你講「chiiau lan beh suiong Taibun, in to e iong chiokhau ka lan chhe mahoan」，tse 真正確，我完全贊成，若你所問 e 問題，我頭前 e 文章已經回答--過-a：我當然無 beh 放棄台文，而且無 beh 放棄 kap in hit 陣殖民主義者爭取 tsiah-e 公資源（he long 是咱納 e 稅金--neh，咱 to iau 無學 Thoreau 實行公民無服從 tsuann-a 無 beh 納稅--leh）。
Kah 若咱無 beh 放棄 kap in ti 公機構內底 sio 戰（咱 ma 實際上按呢 teh 做--ah，無，咱是按怎發動遊行去抗議台語認證預算刪除？），咱當然 ai「親像蛇 hiah-nih 靈巧，親像粉鳥 hiah-nih 馴良」，thah 有理由 ka-ti 做球 hoo 對敵來 phah e 可能性？
我 koh 說明--1-pai，我所講--e，單純是「公部門 e 出版品 e 書寫系統」，m 是 beh 講 thong 台灣 thong 世界 e 台文書寫系統。
承接頂頭 tsit 段：事實是，無人 beh 消滅傳統 POJ，ti tsit-e 社會背景--nih，ma 無可能透過法律、暴力來消滅傳統 POJ，當然，有人可能 e 講：資源分配 kap 公部門規範就牽涉著象徵暴力（symbolic violence)，總--是，咱若 beh 按呢問，請先翻頭想看咱 kam beh 放棄介入公部門運作，咱 kam 無想 beh ka tsit-e 文化資本再生產 e 力量 ka seh 轉頭，tshue 機會 ka tsit-e ke-si 搶--過-來。（完全體制外 e 運動若 beh 成功，ti tsit-e 媒體 kap 教育普及 e 背景--nih，只有流血暴力革命，m 知 kam 有人有決心、有興趣 mai kan-tann 用 tshui 唇皮，beh 親身去試？）
傳統 POJ 無受著 Un-gian 兄你所講 e hit 款驚--人 e 壓迫 e 事實是：你 kap 有志所做 e 濟濟 POJ e 資源，包括網路、出版品等等，long iau teh 運作、成長。 Hak-khiam 兄講 i 看著有新 e POJ 出版品 tsiok 歡喜--e，我 ma 是 sio-siang--ah！
上尾，關係分做兩派 e 問題，請 tak-e m-thang be 記得 1 件代誌，tann e TL 支持者內底，除了原底使用傳統 POJ e 人，koh 有過去使用 TLPA 等其他系統 e 人，換話來講，若以 POJ e 角度來看，是使用 POJ e 人變 khah 濟--a，使用其他系統 e 人變 khah 少--a，咱 kam 有分派？我看著--e，是咱 e 整合有效果，咱 tioh khah 細 ji 來維持 tsit-e 成果，ti 政府 kap 民間 tsit 兩部份，繼續 kap 壓迫台文 e 人鬥爭 tsiah tioh。
2009/3/25 Iunn Un-gian
Seng-hian :
Goa beh kong e si, chiiau lan beh suiong Taibun, in to e iong chiokhau ka lan chhe mahoan, sou-i goa jim-ui, kasu lan boai hou in kihoe ka lan chhe mahoan, uiit e honghoat tosi hongkhi Taibun, che tongjian paukoah hongkhi TL, anne li kam beh ? Nasi li kianchhi beh suiong Taibun, goa kiangi li mai iong Ang a siuthiau kong e liiu lai tholun chit-e buntoe.
seksu lunbun, phoksu lunbun, iahkoh kongpoumng e chhutpanphin, li kam kahkteng Khehoe kah Goanchubingu e susia hethong long it-ti ? Goa siuN si bo-iaN lah. Kijian bo-iaN, Taigu e bo itti na e piNchoe hiahni siongtiong e taichi ?
Taigu e pouhun, tuliau TL, KIP ma u pan Taigu phengim pisai, iahkoh u kongpou 400 jisu a, suijian kau chitma goa mbat khoaN tioh Taigubang to 1 e lang u chunchiau KIP e Hanji kuihoan tih suiong, paukoah KhinhoaN hiaN. 1-hong-bin, KIP e hanji kuihoan lan iah bo beh chun-siu, 1-hong-bin, koh u lang kiongliat iaukiu lan ai chunsiu KIP TL e kuihoan, che kam bo chhiongtut ?
Suijian luisu e buntoe lan chincheng ikeng kong ke a, chong--si, KhinhoaN hiaN mna 1-pai thekhi, TL thuisak hiahni khunlan, tosi lin chia e long bo beh chichhi. Goa jim-ui thuisak untong sinkhou, lang ma long u cheng-su, kamkah koh tholun ma bo tekpiat e igi, chong--si, chang hoatseng e taichi, ikeng chhiauke goa etang jim-siu e thengtou a. Goa chinchiaN jim-ui, anne bu lohkhi, TL iahbe thuisak sengkong, goanlai POJ e lang ikeng hunchoe 2-phai.
Kisit, chhiaN takke lai siatsiong taichi e ianpian, goa kong goa kojin to ho. 1-khoan si, goa suiong POJ, chhekliok siong goa ma chichhi TL (che si goa goanlai e phahsng) lenggoa 1-khoan chengheng si, goa hong ap-pek boetang suiong POJ, ai kai cho TL, liauau goa khaisi sia bunchiuN phoepheng chichhi TL e lang e luntiam, koh ka goa koanli e bangcham iukoan TL e pouhun longchong theh tiau.
Takke khah hibong khoaNtioh siaNme khoan e kiatko ? Goa kamkah KhinhoaN hiaN ittit beh pek goa kiaN te 2 tiau lou, suijian goa iah bo siuNbeh anne cho.
KhinhoaN hiaN bat ka goa kong, lan e Taigubun untong e sitpai, longsi inui lan kaki e lang. Che ma chiaNchiaN si goa e simsiaN, chisi i jim-ui e hia e lang, kah goa jim-ui e hia e lang, si bokang 1-tin lang.
Ungian 3.25
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009 14:15:38 +0800, Lau Seng-hian wrote
Ún-giân 兄：
「系統無一致」，是洪 á 秀柱 in ê 藉口內底 ê 1 ê，當然 m̄ 是 in 心內正港 ê 理由，我 ê 意思是：咱 kám 有必要替 in 製造機會 hō͘ in 起 khang 起 sún？
第二，我所講 ê「一致」，是指「政府／公部門」出版品頂 kuân 書寫系統 ê 一致，m̄ 是指通台灣一致，你舉 Hak-fa kap 原住民語 ê 例，請想看 māi：Hak-fa kap 原住民語辦認證 tsìn 前，是 m̄ 是 mā 有透過程序做書寫系統 ê 規範？另外，「政府／公部門」ê 出版品內底，kám 有可能無照政府本身所公佈 ê 書寫系統？ 因為 m̄ 管按怎講，「政府」有 teh 出面辦 tsiah-ê 認證考試，kám m̄ 是？
請 m̄-thang 誤解，我當然無 kā 顧面桶取消 hō͘ 母語 tshui-sak ê 政府資源，來怪罪無使用 TL ê 人，tse 無合 tī 我頭前 hit 篇文章 ê 意思，另外，關係李勤岸老師 ê 部份，我無法度替伊發言，我 kan-taⁿ ē-tàng 講我 ka-tī ê 想法。
《台文 BONG 報》kap《台文通訊》lóng 是民間機構，政府對 in ê 刊物發行無用資源支持，in ê 編輯、政策，是董事會等來做決定，封殺傳統 POJ ê 發表空間，相信 m̄ 是 in 採用 TL ê 目標。
2009/3/25 Lau Seng-hian
Ún-giân 兄：「系統無一致」，是洪 á 秀柱 in ê 藉口內底 ê 1 ê，當然 m̄ 是 in 心內正港 ê 理由，我 ê 意思是：咱 kám 有必要替 in 製造機會 hō͘ in 起 khang 起 sún？
第二，我所講 ê「一致」，是指「政府／公部門」出版品頂 kuân 書寫系統 ê 一致，m̄ 是指通台灣一致，你舉 Hak-fa kap 原住民語 ê 例，請想看 māi：Hak-fa kap 原住民語辦認證 tsìn 前，是 m̄ 是 mā 有透過程序做書寫系統 ê 規範？另外，「政府／公部門」ê 出版品內底，kám 有可能無照政府本身所公佈 ê 書寫系統？ 因為 m̄ 管按怎講，「政府」有 teh 出面辦 tsiah-ê 認證考試，kám m̄ 是？請 m̄-thang 誤解，我當然無 kā 顧面桶取消 hō͘ 母語 tshui-sak ê 政府資源，來怪罪無使用 TL ê 人，tse 無合 tī 我頭前 hit 篇文章 ê 意思，另外，關係李勤岸老師 ê 部份，我無法度替伊發言，我 kan-taⁿ ē-tàng 講我 ka-tī ê 想法。
《台文 BONG 報》kap《台文通訊》lóng 是民間機構，政府對
2009/3/25 Iunn Un-gian
Seng-hian :
Kasu suiong bo it-ti to boesai pan jim-cheng, goa e siuNhoat si (1) Hoagu boesai pan jim-cheng (Kok-hau ka chu-im, tengbin u e sak Thongiong, u e sak Hangu phengim, binkan ma iahkoh kui lo tho
(2) Khehoe kah Goanchubingu ma boesai pan jim-cheng. Nasi chite liiu senglip, goa siuN, KhinhoaN hiaN chit-si-lang bo kholeng tan tioh Taigu jim-cheng e keng-hui.Goa boetang liongkai e si, lin ho-pit ka Kok-bin-tong boai poah Taigu jim-cheng kenghui hou lan, koaichoe ti sia Taigu, mkoh bo suiong TL e lang !
Kasu lin ka bo iong TL sia Taigu e lang e hoatpiau khongkan long hongsat, chhun boai sia Taibun, mkoh kholeng khauthau chichhi TL e lang, Taigu jim-cheng e kenghui simsi to e lohlai ? Taigubun untong nasi chengkeng kiaN kau chit e toe-pou, li kam jim-ui thuisak TL si sengkong e ?
Ungian 3.25
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009 13:38:46 +0800, Lau Seng-hian wrote
我 [UTF-8?]礙 想法:
> 顧面桶 tik 實 [UTF-8?]b� 信用--得。就親像 [UTF-8?]Ha法-khiam 兄 kap [UTF-8?]J贖-kh獺i [UTF-8?]�栋�雓�--礙嚗鉴県�嗥钏�� beh 放棄民間 [UTF-8?]礙 力量，總--是，咱 [UTF-8?]獺n-ne 講 [UTF-8?]礙 [UTF-8?]�恠�k獺m 就代表咱「完全無 be法 利用政府機構內底 [UTF-8?]礙 資源」，iah 是咱「完全無想 beh 促成政府政策 [UTF-8?]礙 tshui-sak kap 改變？」 >
頂 [UTF-8?]ku璽n [UTF-8?]tsit-礙 [UTF-8?]�镣�嚗鹤�n [UTF-�n?]雓�霁伨�弪� 人，有資格 [UTF-8?]khi�H-th簾ng-th簾ng [UTF-8?]huah-hi鄉 i 無 beh [UTF-8?]hi羅 羅馬字整合，無 beh tshap KIP；若是 [UTF-8?]穫n�嗫� [UTF-8?]�胯�弪� 人，或者是有 bat 使用(∕爭取∕想 beh 利用) 政府資源 [UTF-8?]礙 人，kap [UTF-8?]i獺u-koh 想 beh 造成政策改變 [UTF-8?]礙 人，beh [UTF-8?]獺n-tsu獺�� 有立場 [UTF-8?]獺n-ne 講，我想 [UTF-8?]b�-hi獺u��
上基本 [UTF-8?]礙 1 點是：政府機構∕公機關 [UTF-8?]礙 [UTF-8?]�箇��睻�tio去 一致使用 KIP [UTF�t8?]�啁�嚗鹤》-ne tsiah [UTF-8?]b� [UTF-8?]h要g [UTF-8?]khi�嚗霁揪 [UTF-8?]獺 秀柱 in 刪除台語認證 [UTF-8?]礙 預算 [UTF-8?]礙 時，有起 1 [UTF-8?]礙 攔頭號做「拼音系統 [UTF-8?]i獺u-bu� [UTF-8?]銝��湛��⊥�閰脰齒隤诎��饥岫��O�k獺m 講咱 beh 大大典典用行動�O明�kin [UTF-8?]m� �O teh [UTF-8�O]hau-si璽u嚗�
除非，咱有影按算 beh 據在 [UTF-8?]tsit-礙 政府去舞，無 beh [UTF-8?]the多 i 1 [UTF-8?]si獺n 錢，無 beh ka sak ka [UTF-8?]tu多嚗鞑访--tsi獺嚗鉴県 [UTF-8?]tio去 翻頭想看咱 beh [UTF-8?]khi� [UTF-8?]si獺��-mih 款立場。
2009/3/26 gmail
Goa siuN. Chit e bun-toe e-sai hun-choe kui-a hong-bin lai su-kho:
- su-iong chia (khan-siap lang-sou, LMJ i-goan, kap thai-tou)
- chhui-sak chia (che si thai-tou bun-toe)
- koaN-hong (chit e tan-ui m-bat chhui-sak koe LMJ) Goa beh kong e chu-iau si KIP [UTF-8?]法ap che-teng TL e pou-hun:
TL kap POJ, i bok-chian kho-ki (tian-chu hoa) lai-kong, choan-oaN si chin kan-tan e tai-chi, ia-toh-si tian-chu liu-thoan bo jim-ho e khun-lan (chhiaN
chham-kho TG SBA), sou-i khoaN--khi-lai chi-si, su-sia kap in-soat e soan-tek bun-toe ji-i. Khin-hoaN hiaN it-tit kong KIP kong-pou, lan tioh long eng-kai chiau cho. U I khou-sim e sou-chai. M-ku, goa jin-ui KMT e KIP
chu thau kau boe long m-bat ka lan tau-saN-kang siaN-mih, lan ho-pit thiaN in e. Lan pun-lai tioh-si bin-kan e chu-hoat heng-tong. KoaN-hong bo the-thiap bin-cheng, che si sit-bin-chia e sim-thai. Lan beh khi hou I au--khi. Ki-sit goa si chin m-goan. Koh chai kong, che-teng TL e ui-goan,
tu-liau Khin-hoaN hiaN, chi-goa kam koh u lang teh chhui-sak LMJ???? [UTF-8?]點n kam bat sia koe TGB, iah-si jim-ho bun-chiuN kong beh chhui-sak LMJ ??? [UTF-8?]點n
bo-lang teh eng, choaN chai-iaN POJ kap TL e ho-bai, iah-si i-keng lau--loh-lai e chu-goan u siaN-mih. Koe-khi hun-tau e seng-ko(ChhiaN chham-kho Un-gian hiaN e bang-cham), In oe 1 oe tioh long hu-siau. Chin
> kho-oN! > Chiau chit e pan-se, Lan bo-kho-leng u kian-choan e chit-jit. Hit jit na beh > lai, in he KIP koaN-oan iu-koh lai 1 e hoe, ka Li hu-tiau. Chin kin, Chin > khoai!!!! > Sou-i goa jin-ui, Lan 1) seng chhui-kong LMJ su-sia TGB 2) Su-iong > siong-choe chu-goan e POJ, ke-siok cheng-ka POJ chu-goan. [UTF-8?]你n-ni, chiu-sng
KIP hoaiN-pa-pa, lan ma boe tng-kun khi. NA-si toe KIP, chin-chiaN beh si m-chai tang-si.
> Khai > > ----- Original Message -----
From: "Hak-khiam TiuN"
To: "Tekhoa"
Cc: "Taigibang"
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 7:03 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [tgb] Re: TL kah POJ e chhiongtut
Tak-ke ho:
Ungian hiaN theh-chhut chit e bun-te, goa siuN chin tat-tit tho-lun. Tong-jian i kong e POJ & TL e chhiong-tut chi-si POJ & TL koan-he e
chit-chiong. E hong u chhiong-tut e kam-kak ma chin ho li-kai, in-ui POJ & TL e chi-chhi-chia u teng-thah,
koh ka-siong pun-te su-iong POJ e Tai-bun chap-chi, c.c. Bong-po, TBTS long kai-iong TL.
Chit-si-kan POJ soah bo saN hoat-piau e khong-kan.
POJ & TL leng-goa chit e kho-leng e koan-he si kiong-chun, hun-kang. Bo su-iau ti chit 2 e he-thong soan-tek, 2 e long chi-chhi, m-koh ki-jian koaN-hong chi-chhi TL, ti kau-iok the-che, cheng-hu e kang-teng tioh chiau cheng-hu e kui-teng khi kiaN, chhun-e bin-kan e LMJ ke-siok su-iong POJ, che si goa chin-cheng thiaN lang ka goa kong bi-lai POJ & TL e koan-he, chit-ma cho-liau an-choaN goa bo-kai chheng-chho. Thui-sak TL e lang chin sin-khou, goa kan-ta ng-bang m-thang ka POJ e chun-chai, su-iong tong-cho si TL thui-sak sit-pai e
piau-si. Goa ko-jin e-tang tong-si chi-chhi POJ & TL,> m-koh na iau-kiu goa hong-khi POJ chiah sng si chi-chhi TL, goa jin-ui > bo pit-iau. Goa tak-pai khi chheh-kiok na khoaN-tioh > koh u POJ e ji-tian ah-si chheh chhut-pan long e chin hoaN-hi. Bun-ji > e seN-mia-lek bo hoat-tou thau-koe cheng-hu e hoat-leng lai ui-chhi, > bin-kan chu-hoat-seng e, tng-ki-e su-iong chiah-si tiong-iau. >
I-siong 2 chiong POJ & TL e koan-he tak-ke bong chham-kho, kho-leng koh u ki-tha e kho-leng-seng.
Hak-khiam
2009/3/25 Tekhoa : > Apang hiaN kap tak-e: > > goa chanseng ai tholun > > 1) kian-na tu tioh chit-khoan bunte, chong--si e u lang khng kong au-jit-a > chiah tholun > [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� kiatko iaubpe tan kau au-jit-a, bunte mna bo kaikoat, soah ju bun ju
giamtiong
2) "hun-liat" chit-hang taichi punlai to bian khoan kah hiah tang
[UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]真i tioh thoankiat boai ka taichi kong beng, [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]群itche siong tianto e checho hunliat
> > 3) chiaN che lang long ittit kong TL iah si POJ tak-e beh sia toh 1 tho to > sia toh 1 tho
[UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� kong si bo m-tioh, mkoh che oe soah ma siuN koe khang [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� na bo, si anchoaN e ittit u iaukiu patlang sia/kai cho TL e chengheng
chhut-hian?
> > 4) tenghoe tholun kau chit-e bunte e si, goa u the-chhut kong: > > [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� si, bo mtioh, takl-e chuiu soantek beh iong toh 1 tho > > [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� mkoh tauko--chhut-khi toa pouhun e souchai long iaukiu ai iong TL > > [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� anne, chit khoan "chu-iu5" u siaNmih i-gi?> Tekhoa > > > ----- Original Message ----- > 寄件者: apang.chiu
收件者:
副本: TGB(G) ; Tavokan Kh㮮 Hu䁢ῠ ; Iunn Un-gian
傳送日期: 2009年3月24日 下午 11:45 主旨: [tgb] Re: TL kah POJ e chhiongtut Kok-ui :
> > Sio-ti kian-gi pat-jit thang-lai tho-lun. > > Lan bo hun-liat e pun. > > Kat thau ho* khui, m-thang lu phah lu an, pian si-kat, > > Kho-lu siong-se.
Pai-thok !
A-pangPS : Teng-koan/ting-kuan e gi-su POJ kap TL long e thong, kam m-si?
ChhiaN/tshiann sam-su. -----Original message-----
From:Kei TADA
To:Iunn Un-gianCc:Tai-gu-bang ,
Date:Tue, 24 Mar 2009 17:12:15 +0900
> Subject:[tgb] Re: TL kah POJ e chhiongtut >
Ungian hiaN,
Goa e chu-i Ungian hiaN sou the-khi chit-e bun-te.
TLPA ah-si TL si, i POJ cho ki-chhou e he-thong.
Su-iong TLPA ah-si TL bo eng-kai ap-pek POJ e su-iong.
TL na jim-tong POJ cho i e bo-chhin, chi-chhi POJ e lang chiah e chi-chhi TL.
Lan na e-sai chham-u hun-hoa le?
TADA
2009/3/24 Iunn Un-gian : > Takke ho : > > Suijian chia e buntoe chincheng ikeng u tholun ke a, goa ma bo siuNbeh ke> >> kong, mkoh kinajit koh hoatseng 1-koa taichi, jichhiaN kah KhinhoaN hiaN > >> u > >> koanhe. > >> > >> Goa chincheng hoanlo e, TL iahbe sengkong, goanlai suiong POJ e lang soah > >> hun choe 2-phai. Chite buntoe, khoaN khilai iahkoh si chin giamtiong. > >> > >> Goa chitma chin bo-eng, taichi long cho boe oan, soui goa kholeng e 4/15
i-au, chhe sikan tiam Taigubang hoho-a lai kong chit kiaN taichi e kengke,
>> kah goa e siuNhoat. >> >> Goa jim-ui nasi chhuli bo ho, Tailohoe ma e chhuthian chenggi, choseng >> TLH >> e
hunliat. Si annoa goa e anne kong, inui chincheng KhinhoaN hiaN bat uitioh
> >> TLH bo suiong TL, kong beh si lisu, chitma KhinhoaN hiaN si TLH e > >> siong-bu > >> lisu, soui chit-e buntoe itteng e koh toa jipkhi TLH. > >>
Suijian Taibunkoan hitpeng jimtong goa e chohoat, mkoh choeau goa iong POJ
>> sia e bunchiuN, pitsu ai kai cho TL. LMJ susia hethong hiahni choe, 10 >> kui >> tang chincheng, goa e LMJ hong kai choe Thong-iong hengsek e LMJ, goa bat
kongkhai khonggi, bo siuNtioh chitpai soah si hou kaki e lang kiongpek ai siukai, goa boe kongkhai khonggi, mkoh choattui e kongkhai tholun chit
>> chan >> taichi. >>
Inui goa jim-ui nasi bo tholun, POj e suiong e kesiok hou TL appek. Lan na
>> chaiiaN lan bo hunliat e punchiN, si annoa chitkhoan taichi e itchai >> hoatseng ? >>
-- Iunn Un-gian 楊允言
Tai-han Chu-kang-he Chou-li kau-siu大漢資工系助理教授
(O) 03-821-0871 http://iug.csie.dahan.edu.tw
> > >
--
Lau, Seng-hian[UTF-8?]嚚靁访 koh 在定，ma [UTF-8?]�⊥粐憭綨�嚚�
-- Iunn Un-gian 楊允言 Tai-han Chu-kang-he Chou-li kau-siu大漢資工系助理教授 (O) 03-821-0871 [http://iug.csie.dahan.edu.tw](http://iug.csie.dahan.edu.tw/)
-- Lau, Seng-hian
～無 koh 在定，ma 無放外外～--
Lau, Seng-hian
～無 koh 在定，ma 無放外外～
-- Iunn Un-gian 楊允言 Tai-han Chu-kang-he Chou-li kau-siu大漢資工系助理教授 (O) 03-821-0871 http://iug.csie.dahan.edu.tw
-- Lau, Seng-hian
～無 koh 在定，ma 無放外外～
-- Lau, Seng-hian
～無 koh 在定，ma 無放外外～
Re: Re: [tgb] Re: TL kah POJ e chhiongtut
From: Hak-khiam TiuN
Date: 2009-03-25 18:30:49
Tak-ke ho:Goa teng tiuN phoe u kong POJ & TLPA e 2 chiong koan-he:1. pai-tu-sek e: TL chhu-tai POJ;
- kiong-chun hun-kang-sek e: chi-chhi ti kau-iok the-che iong TL; POJ iong ti bo siu cheng-hu han-che e tiuN-hap.Goa ka-ki si chi-chhi hun-kang e hong-sek. An-ne sui-jian si bo hah piau-chun-hoa e iau-kiu, ma kiong-kiaN e hong kong bo it-ti, m-koh goa kam-kak ti Tai-oan hoan-se chin che sou-chai long ai iong chit-khoan lui-su "cheng-sin-hun-liat" e hong-sek lai koe seng-oah. Phi-ju-kong:1. Kok-mia: Tiong-hoa-bin-kok (cheng-hu kong e) vs. Tai-oan-kok (lan/bin-kan kong e);
- Gi-gian e mia: Ban-lan-gi (cheng-hu kong e) vs. Tai-gi, Tai-oan-oe (lan/bin-kan kong e);
- Kok-chok（國族） jin-tong: Tiong-kok-lang vs. Tai-oan-lang;
- Ni-tai: Bin-kok 98 ni vs. Se-goan 2009 ni;
- Chinese: Kok-gi vs. pak-kiaN-oe, Hoa-gi ……..Teng-bin e kong-hoat eng-iong ti TL kah POJ tioh piN-cho:6. LMJ he-thong: TL vs. POJ+ki-tha e LMJ he-thongChit e "chai-tiau" kah "chai-ia" e hun-hoat si lan peng-siong seng-oah e chit pou-hun, gi-gian-hak u "oaN-oe-kong" (code-switching) kah "lam-oe-kong" (code-mixing) e kong-hoat, lan ma theng-ho ti LMJ su-iong-siong an-ne cho, bo pit-iau ka ka-ki pak-an-an, tong-cho Bun-ji e lou-chai. "Phiau-chun-hoa“(ti chia teng-gi cho tak-ke long iong kang chit tho LMJ he-thong) ti hian-kai-toaN hoan-se m-si hiah-ni tiong-iau. Chou-tong LMJ hoat-tian e m-si lan u bo-kang e LMJ he-thong, chu-iau si kui-e gi-gian kau-iok hou Han-ji pak-si-si, kan-ta ka chu-im-hu-ho.Goa siuN koaN-hong tui LMJ e thai-tou tioh-si chin-liong pai-tu, sou-i bi-lai Tai-gi jin-cheng si-m-si e kho TL, che kho-leng chiaN-piaN leh, goa siuN na si beh kian-chhi kho LMJ, u kho-leng tioh ai chun-pi tho-hiap, hou kho-seng soan-tek in beh su-iong e LMJ he-thong (tong-jian kan-ta khah u lang teh iong e he-thong). Koh-khah tiong-iau e si ai u chit e oan-cheng e LMJ kau-iok cheng-chhek.Hak-khiam 2009/3/25 Lau Seng-hian :
Tekhoa,
你講 tioh 我無了解 e 部份，請 thiah 白，我想 beh 學。
多謝！
Seng-hian
2009/3/25 Tekhoa
Seng-hian hiaN
li e kong-hoat siuN-koe ui-sim--a (唯心)
Tekhoa
----- Original Message ----- 寄件者: Lau Seng-hian 收件者: 台語網 傳送日期: 2009年3月25日 下午 03:20 主旨: [tgb] Re: TL kah POJ e chhiongtut Un-gian 兄：
你講「chiiau lan beh suiong Taibun, in to e iong chiokhau ka lan chhe mahoan」，tse 真正確，我完全贊成，若你所問 e 問題，我頭前 e 文章已經回答--過-a：我當然無 beh 放棄台文，而且無 beh 放棄 kap in hit 陣殖民主義者爭取 tsiah-e 公資源（he long 是咱納 e 稅金--neh，咱 to iau 無學 Thoreau 實行公民無服從 tsuann-a 無 beh 納稅--leh）。
Kah 若咱無 beh 放棄 kap in ti 公機構內底 sio 戰（咱 ma 實際上按呢 teh 做--ah，無，咱是按怎發動遊行去抗議台語認證預算刪除？），咱當然 ai「親像蛇 hiah-nih 靈巧，親像粉鳥 hiah-nih 馴良」，thah 有理由 ka-ti 做球 hoo 對敵來 phah e 可能性？
我 koh 說明--1-pai，我所講--e，單純是「公部門 e 出版品 e 書寫系統」，m 是 beh 講 thong 台灣 thong 世界 e 台文書寫系統。
承接頂頭 tsit 段：事實是，無人 beh 消滅傳統 POJ，ti tsit-e 社會背景--nih，ma 無可能透過法律、暴力來消滅傳統 POJ，當然，有人可能 e 講：資源分配 kap 公部門規範就牽涉著象徵暴力（symbolic violence)，總--是，咱若 beh 按呢問，請先翻頭想看咱 kam beh 放棄介入公部門運作，咱 kam 無想 beh ka tsit-e 文化資本再生產 e 力量 ka seh 轉頭，tshue 機會 ka tsit-e ke-si 搶--過-來。（完全體制外 e 運動若 beh 成功，ti tsit-e 媒體 kap 教育普及 e 背景--nih，只有流血暴力革命，m 知 kam 有人有決心、有興趣 mai kan-tann 用 tshui 唇皮，beh 親身去試？）
傳統 POJ 無受著 Un-gian 兄你所講 e hit 款驚--人 e 壓迫 e 事實是：你 kap 有志所做 e 濟濟 POJ e 資源，包括網路、出版品等等，long iau teh 運作、成長。 Hak-khiam 兄講 i 看著有新 e POJ 出版品 tsiok 歡喜--e，我 ma 是 sio-siang--ah！
上尾，關係分做兩派 e 問題，請 tak-e m-thang be 記得 1 件代誌，tann e TL 支持者內底，除了原底使用傳統 POJ e 人，koh 有過去使用 TLPA 等其他系統 e 人，換話來講，若以 POJ e 角度來看，是使用 POJ e 人變 khah 濟--a，使用其他系統 e 人變 khah 少--a，咱 kam 有分派？我看著--e，是咱 e 整合有效果，咱 tioh khah 細 ji 來維持 tsit-e 成果，ti 政府 kap 民間 tsit 兩部份，繼續 kap 壓迫台文 e 人鬥爭 tsiah tioh。
2009/3/25 Iunn Un-gian
Seng-hian :
Goa beh kong e si, chiiau lan beh suiong Taibun, in to e iong chiokhau ka lan chhe mahoan, sou-i goa jim-ui, kasu lan boai hou in kihoe ka lan chhe mahoan, uiit e honghoat tosi hongkhi Taibun, che tongjian paukoah hongkhi TL, anne li kam beh ? Nasi li kianchhi beh suiong Taibun, goa kiangi li mai iong Ang a siuthiau kong e liiu lai tholun chit-e buntoe.
seksu lunbun, phoksu lunbun, iahkoh kongpoumng e chhutpanphin, li kam kahkteng Khehoe kah Goanchubingu e susia hethong long it-ti ? Goa siuN si bo-iaN lah. Kijian bo-iaN, Taigu e bo itti na e piNchoe hiahni siongtiong e taichi ?
Taigu e pouhun, tuliau TL, KIP ma u pan Taigu phengim pisai, iahkoh u kongpou 400 jisu a, suijian kau chitma goa mbat khoaN tioh Taigubang to 1 e lang u chunchiau KIP e Hanji kuihoan tih suiong, paukoah KhinhoaN hiaN. 1-hong-bin, KIP e hanji kuihoan lan iah bo beh chun-siu, 1-hong-bin, koh u lang kiongliat iaukiu lan ai chunsiu KIP TL e kuihoan, che kam bo chhiongtut ?
Suijian luisu e buntoe lan chincheng ikeng kong ke a, chong--si, KhinhoaN hiaN mna 1-pai thekhi, TL thuisak hiahni khunlan, tosi lin chia e long bo beh chichhi. Goa jim-ui thuisak untong sinkhou, lang ma long u cheng-su, kamkah koh tholun ma bo tekpiat e igi, chong--si, chang hoatseng e taichi, ikeng chhiauke goa etang jim-siu e thengtou a. Goa chinchiaN jim-ui, anne bu lohkhi, TL iahbe thuisak sengkong, goanlai POJ e lang ikeng hunchoe 2-phai.
Kisit, chhiaN takke lai siatsiong taichi e ianpian, goa kong goa kojin to ho. 1-khoan si, goa suiong POJ, chhekliok siong goa ma chichhi TL (che si goa goanlai e phahsng) lenggoa 1-khoan chengheng si, goa hong ap-pek boetang suiong POJ, ai kai cho TL, liauau goa khaisi sia bunchiuN phoepheng chichhi TL e lang e luntiam, koh ka goa koanli e bangcham iukoan TL e pouhun longchong theh tiau.
Takke khah hibong khoaNtioh siaNme khoan e kiatko ? Goa kamkah KhinhoaN hiaN ittit beh pek goa kiaN te 2 tiau lou, suijian goa iah bo siuNbeh anne cho.
KhinhoaN hiaN bat ka goa kong, lan e Taigubun untong e sitpai, longsi inui lan kaki e lang. Che ma chiaNchiaN si goa e simsiaN, chisi i jim-ui e hia e lang, kah goa jim-ui e hia e lang, si bokang 1-tin lang.
Ungian 3.25
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009 14:15:38 +0800, Lau Seng-hian wrote
Ún-giân 兄：
「系統無一致」，是洪 á 秀柱 in ê 藉口內底 ê 1 ê，當然 m̄ 是 in 心內正港 ê 理由，我 ê 意思是：咱 kám 有必要替 in 製造機會 hō͘ in 起 khang 起 sún？
第二，我所講 ê「一致」，是指「政府／公部門」出版品頂 kuân 書寫系統 ê 一致，m̄ 是指通台灣一致，你舉 Hak-fa kap 原住民語 ê 例，請想看 māi：Hak-fa kap 原住民語辦認證 tsìn 前，是 m̄ 是 mā 有透過程序做書寫系統 ê 規範？另外，「政府／公部門」ê 出版品內底，kám 有可能無照政府本身所公佈 ê 書寫系統？ 因為 m̄ 管按怎講，「政府」有 teh 出面辦 tsiah-ê 認證考試，kám m̄ 是？
請 m̄-thang 誤解，我當然無 kā 顧面桶取消 hō͘ 母語 tshui-sak ê 政府資源，來怪罪無使用 TL ê 人，tse 無合 tī 我頭前 hit 篇文章 ê 意思，另外，關係李勤岸老師 ê 部份，我無法度替伊發言，我 kan-taⁿ ē-tàng 講我 ka-tī ê 想法。
《台文 BONG 報》kap《台文通訊》lóng 是民間機構，政府對 in ê 刊物發行無用資源支持，in ê 編輯、政策，是董事會等來做決定，封殺傳統 POJ ê 發表空間，相信 m̄ 是 in 採用 TL ê 目標。
2009/3/25 Lau Seng-hian
Ún-giân 兄：
「系統無一致」，是洪 á 秀柱 in ê 藉口內底 ê 1 ê，當然 m̄ 是 in 心內正港 ê 理由，我 ê 意思是：咱 kám 有必要替 in 製造機會 hō͘ in 起 khang 起 sún？
第二，我所講 ê「一致」，是指「政府／公部門」出版品頂 kuân 書寫系統 ê 一致，m̄ 是指通台灣一致，你舉 Hak-fa kap 原住民語 ê 例，請想看 māi：Hak-fa kap 原住民語辦認證 tsìn 前，是 m̄ 是 mā 有透過程序做書寫系統 ê 規範？另外，「政府／公部門」ê 出版品內底，kám 有可能無照政府本身所公佈 ê 書寫系統？ 因為 m̄ 管按怎講，「政府」有 teh 出面辦 tsiah-ê 認證考試，kám m̄ 是？
請 m̄-thang 誤解，我當然無 kā 顧面桶取消 hō͘ 母語 tshui-sak ê 政府資源，來怪罪無使用 TL ê 人，tse 無合 tī 我頭前 hit 篇文章 ê 意思，另外，關係李勤岸老師 ê 部份，我無法度替伊發言，我 kan-taⁿ ē-tàng 講我 ka-tī ê 想法。
《台文 BONG 報》kap《台文通訊》lóng 是民間機構，政府對
2009/3/25 Iunn Un-gian
Seng-hian :
Kasu suiong bo it-ti to boesai pan jim-cheng, goa e siuNhoat si (1) Hoagu boesai pan jim-cheng (Kok-hau ka chu-im, tengbin u e sak Thongiong, u e sak Hangu phengim, binkan ma iahkoh kui lo tho (2) Khehoe kah Goanchubingu ma boesai pan jim-cheng.
Nasi chite liiu senglip, goa siuN, KhinhoaN hiaN chit-si-lang bo kholeng tan tioh Taigu jim-cheng e keng-hui.
Goa boetang liongkai e si, lin ho-pit ka Kok-bin-tong boai poah Taigu jim-cheng kenghui hou lan, koaichoe ti sia Taigu, mkoh bo suiong TL e lang !
Kasu lin ka bo iong TL sia Taigu e lang e hoatpiau khongkan long hongsat, chhun boai sia Taibun, mkoh kholeng khauthau chichhi TL e lang, Taigu jim-cheng e kenghui simsi to e lohlai ? Taigubun untong nasi chengkeng kiaN kau chit e toe-pou, li kam jim-ui thuisak TL si sengkong e ?
Ungian 3.25
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009 13:38:46 +0800, Lau Seng-hian wrote
我 [UTF-8?]礙 想法:
顧面桶 tik 實 [UTF-8?]b� 信用--得。就親像 [UTF-8?]Ha法-khiam 兄 kap [UTF-8?]J贖-kh獺i [UTF-8?]�栋�雓�--礙嚗鉴県�嗥钏�� beh 放棄民間 [UTF-8?]礙 力量，總--是，咱 [UTF-8?]獺n-ne 講 [UTF-8?]礙 [UTF-8?]�恠�k獺m 就代表咱「完全無 beh 利用政府機�k內底 [UTF-8?]礙 資源」，iah 是咱「完全無想 beh 促成政府政策 [UTF-8?]礙 tshui-sak kap 改變？」
頂 [UTF-8?]ku璽n [UTF-8?]tsit-礙 [UTF-8?]�镣�嚗鹤�n [UTF-8?]雓�霁伨�弪� 人，有資�n [UTF-8?]�Hhi�-th簾ng-th簾ng [UTF-8?]huah-hi鄉 i 無 beh [UTF-8?]hi羅 羅馬字整合，無 beh tshap KIP；若是 [UTF-8?]穫n�嗫� [UTF-8?]�胯�弪� 人，或者是有 bat 使用(∕爭取∕想 beh �Q�H) 政府資源 [UTF-8?]礙 人，kap [UTF-8?]i獺u-koh 想 beh 造成政策改變 [UTF-8?]礙 人，beh [UTF-8?]獺n-tsu獺�� 有立場 [UTF-8?]獺n-ne 講，我想 [UTF-8?]b�-hi獺u��
上基本 [UTF-8?]礙 1 點是：政府機構∕公機關 [UTF-8?]礙 [UTF-8?]�箇��睻�tio去 一致使用 KIP [U�tF-8?]�啁�嚗鹤》-ne tsiah [UTF-8?]b� [UTF-8?]h要g [UTF-8?]khi�嚗霁揪 [UTF-8?]獺 秀柱 in 刪除台語認證 [UTF-8?]礙 預算 [UTF-8?]礙 時，有起 1 [UTF-8?]礙 攔頭號做「拼音系統 [UTF-8?]i獺u-bu� [UTF-8?]銝��湛��⊥�閰脰齒隤诎��饥岫��O�k獺m 講咱 beh 大大典典用行動證明 in [U�OF�k8?]m� �O teh [UTF-8?]hau-s�O璽u嚗�
除非，咱有影按算 beh 據在 [UTF-8?]tsit-礙 政府去舞，無 beh [UTF-8?]the多 i 1 [UTF-8?]si獺n 錢，無 beh ka sak ka [UTF-8?]tu多嚗鞑访--tsi獺嚗鉴県 [UTF-8?]tio去 翻頭想看咱 beh [UTF-8?]khi� [UTF-8?]si獺��-mih 款立場。
2009/3/26 gmail
Goa siuN. Chit e bun-toe e-sai hun-choe kui-a hong-bin lai su-kho:
- su-iong chia (khan-siap lang-sou, LMJ i-goan, kap thai-tou)
- chhui-sak chia (che si thai-tou bun-toe)
- koaN-hong (chit e tan-ui m-bat chhui-sak koe LMJ) Goa beh kong e chu-iau si KIP [UTF-8?]法ap che-teng TL e pou-hun:
TL kap POJ, i bok-chian kho-ki (tian-chu hoa) lai-kong, choan-oaN si chin kan-tan e tai-chi, ia-toh-si tian-chu liu-thoan bo jim-ho e khun-lan (chhiaN chham-kho TG SBA), sou-i khoaN--khi-lai chi-si, su-sia kap in-soat e soan-tek bun-toe ji-i. Khin-hoaN hiaN it-tit kong KIP kong-pou, lan tioh long eng-kai chiau cho. U I khou-sim e sou-chai. M-ku, goa jin-ui KMT e KIP chu thau kau boe long m-bat ka lan tau-saN-kang siaN-mih, lan ho-pit thiaN in e. Lan pun-lai tioh-si bin-kan e chu-hoat heng-tong. KoaN-hong bo the-thiap bin-cheng, che si sit-bin-chia e sim-thai. Lan beh khi hou I au--khi. Ki-sit goa si chin m-goan. Koh chai kong, che-teng TL e ui-goan, tu-liau Khin-hoaN hiaN, chi-goa kam koh u lang teh chhui-sak LMJ???? [UTF-8?]點n kam bat sia koe TGB, iah-si jim-ho bun-chiuN kong beh chhui-sak LMJ ??? [UTF-8?]點n
bo-lang teh eng, choaN chai-iaN POJ kap TL e ho-bai, iah-si i-keng lau--loh-lai e chu-goan u siaN-mih. Koe-khi hun-tau e seng-ko(ChhiaN chham-kho Un-gian hiaN e bang-cham), In oe 1 oe tioh long hu-siau. Chin kho-oN! Chiau chit e pan-se, Lan bo-kho-leng u kian-choan e chit-jit. Hit jit na beh lai, in he KIP koaN-oan iu-koh lai 1 e hoe, ka Li hu-tiau. Chin kin, Chin khoai!!!! Sou-i goa jin-ui, Lan 1) seng chhui-kong LMJ su-sia TGB 2) Su-iong siong-choe chu-goan e POJ, ke-siok cheng-ka POJ chu-goan. [UTF-8?]你n-ni, chiu-sng
KIP hoaiN-pa-pa, lan ma boe tng-kun khi. NA-si toe KIP, chin-chiaN beh si m-chai tang-si.
Khai
----- Original Message ----- From: "Hak-khiam TiuN" To: "Tekhoa" Cc: "Taigibang" Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 7:03 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [tgb] Re: TL kah POJ e chhiongtut
Tak-ke ho:
Ungian hiaN theh-chhut chit e bun-te, goa siuN chin tat-tit tho-lun. Tong-jian i kong e POJ & TL e chhiong-tut chi-si POJ & TL koan-he e chit-chiong. E hong u chhiong-tut e kam-kak ma chin ho li-kai, in-ui POJ & TL e chi-chhi-chia u teng-thah, koh ka-siong pun-te su-iong POJ e Tai-bun chap-chi, c.c. Bong-po, TBTS long kai-iong TL. Chit-si-kan POJ soah bo saN hoat-piau e khong-kan.
POJ & TL leng-goa chit e kho-leng e koan-he si kiong-chun, hun-kang. Bo su-iau ti chit 2 e he-thong soan-tek, 2 e long chi-chhi, m-koh ki-jian koaN-hong chi-chhi TL, ti kau-iok the-che, cheng-hu e kang-teng tioh chiau cheng-hu e kui-teng khi kiaN, chhun-e bin-kan e LMJ ke-siok su-iong POJ, che si goa chin-cheng thiaN lang ka goa kong bi-lai POJ & TL e koan-he, chit-ma cho-liau an-choaN goa bo-kai chheng-chho. Thui-sak TL e lang chin sin-khou, goa kan-ta ng-bang m-thang ka POJ e chun-chai, su-iong tong-cho si TL thui-sak sit-pai e piau-si. Goa ko-jin e-tang tong-si chi-chhi POJ & TL, m-koh na iau-kiu goa hong-khi POJ chiah sng si chi-chhi TL, goa jin-ui bo pit-iau. Goa tak-pai khi chheh-kiok na khoaN-tioh koh u POJ e ji-tian ah-si chheh chhut-pan long e chin hoaN-hi. Bun-ji e seN-mia-lek bo hoat-tou thau-koe cheng-hu e hoat-leng lai ui-chhi, bin-kan chu-hoat-seng e, tng-ki-e su-iong chiah-si tiong-iau.
I-siong 2 chiong POJ & TL e koan-he tak-ke bong chham-kho, kho-leng koh u ki-tha e kho-leng-seng.
Hak-khiam
2009/3/25 Tekhoa :
Apang hiaN kap tak-e:
goa chanseng ai tholun
1) kian-na tu tioh chit-khoan bunte, chong--si e u lang khng kong au-jit-a chiah tholun [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� kiatko iaubpe tan kau au-jit-a, bunte mna bo kaikoat, soah ju bun ju
giamtiong
2) "hun-liat" chit-hang taichi punlai to bian khoan kah hiah tang [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]真i tioh thoankiat boai ka taichi kong beng, [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]群itche siong tianto e checho hunliat
3) chiaN che lang long ittit kong TL iah si POJ tak-e beh sia toh 1 tho to sia toh 1 tho [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� kong si bo m-tioh, mkoh che oe soah ma siuN koe khang [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� na bo, si anchoaN e ittit u iaukiu patlang sia/kai cho TL e chengheng
chhut-hian?
4) tenghoe tholun kau chit-e bunte e si, goa u the-chhut kong: [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� si, bo mtioh, takl-e chuiu soantek beh iong toh 1 tho [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� mkoh tauko--chhut-khi toa pouhun e souchai long iaukiu ai iong TL [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� anne, chit khoan "chu-iu5" u siaNmih i-gi?
Tekhoa
----- Original Message ----- 寄件者: apang.chiu 收件者: 副本: TGB(G) ; Tavokan Kh㮮 Hu䁢ῠ ; Iunn Un-gian 傳送日期: 2009年3月24日 下午 11:45 主旨: [tgb] Re: TL kah POJ e chhiongtut Kok-ui : Sio-ti kian-gi pat-jit thang-lai tho-lun. Lan bo hun-liat e pun. Kat thau ho* khui, m-thang lu phah lu an, pian si-kat, Kho-lu siong-se. Pai-thok !
A-pang
PS : Teng-koan/ting-kuan e gi-su POJ kap TL long e thong, kam m-si? ChhiaN/tshiann sam-su. -----Original message----- From:Kei TADA To:Iunn Un-gian Cc:Tai-gu-bang , Date:Tue, 24 Mar 2009 17:12:15 +0900 Subject:[tgb] Re: TL kah POJ e chhiongtut
Ungian hiaN,
Goa e chu-i Ungian hiaN sou the-khi chit-e bun-te.
TLPA ah-si TL si, i POJ cho ki-chhou e he-thong.
Su-iong TLPA ah-si TL bo eng-kai ap-pek POJ e su-iong.
TL na jim-tong POJ cho i e bo-chhin, chi-chhi POJ e lang chiah e chi-chhi TL.
Lan na e-sai chham-u hun-hoa le?
TADA
2009/3/24 Iunn Un-gian :
Takke ho :
Suijian chia e buntoe chincheng ikeng u tholun ke a, goa ma bo siuNbeh ke kong, mkoh kinajit koh hoatseng 1-koa taichi, jichhiaN kah KhinhoaN hiaN u koanhe.
Goa chincheng hoanlo e, TL iahbe sengkong, goanlai suiong POJ e lang soah hun choe 2-phai. Chite buntoe, khoaN khilai iahkoh si chin giamtiong.
Goa chitma chin bo-eng, taichi long cho boe oan, soui goa kholeng e 4/15 i-au, chhe sikan tiam Taigubang hoho-a lai kong chit kiaN taichi e kengke, kah goa e siuNhoat.
Goa jim-ui nasi chhuli bo ho, Tailohoe ma e chhuthian chenggi, choseng TLH e hunliat. Si annoa goa e anne kong, inui chincheng KhinhoaN hiaN bat uitioh TLH bo suiong TL, kong beh si lisu, chitma KhinhoaN hiaN si TLH e siong-bu lisu, soui chit-e buntoe itteng e koh toa jipkhi TLH.
Suijian Taibunkoan hitpeng jimtong goa e chohoat, mkoh choeau goa iong POJ sia e bunchiuN, pitsu ai kai cho TL. LMJ susia hethong hiahni choe, 10 kui tang chincheng, goa e LMJ hong kai choe Thong-iong hengsek e LMJ, goa bat kongkhai khonggi, bo siuNtioh chitpai soah si hou kaki e lang kiongpek ai siukai, goa boe kongkhai khonggi, mkoh choattui e kongkhai tholun chit chan taichi.
Inui goa jim-ui nasi bo tholun, POj e suiong e kesiok hou TL appek. Lan na chaiiaN lan bo hunliat e punchiN, si annoa chitkhoan taichi e itchai hoatseng ?
-- Iunn Un-gian 楊允言 Tai-han Chu-kang-he Chou-li kau-siu大漢資工系助理教授 (O) 03-821-0871 http://iug.csie.dahan.edu.tw
-- Lau, Seng-hian
[UTF-8?]嚚靁访 koh 在定，ma [UTF-8?]�⊥粐憭綨�嚚�
-- Iunn Un-gian 楊允言 Tai-han Chu-kang-he Chou-li kau-siu大漢資工系助理教授 (O) 03-821-0871 http://iug.csie.dahan.edu.tw
-- Lau, Seng-hian
～無 koh 在定，ma 無放外外～
-- Lau, Seng-hian
～無 koh 在定，ma 無放外外～
-- Iunn Un-gian 楊允言 Tai-han Chu-kang-he Chou-li kau-siu大漢資工系助理教授 (O) 03-821-0871 http://iug.csie.dahan.edu.tw
-- Lau, Seng-hian
～無 koh 在定，ma 無放外外～
-- Lau, Seng-hian
～無 koh 在定，ma 無放外外～
Re: Re: [tgb] Re: TL kah POJ e chhiongtut
From: Tekhoa
Date: 2009-03-26 14:40:45
goa seng kantan anne kong
untong e hoattian, u-si-a sio-khoa seh 1-e-a lou, hoan-se to seh beh tng--lai-a
u-si-a niu--1-e, to hong au3--koe-a
che msi chu2-koan jin-ui e iah boe, u kianchhi iah bo kianchhi e bunte
Taitok untong e piancho teh uihou ROC, to si anne choseng--e
inui lan e untong khiamkhoat susiong
kantaN ti chhek-liok teng--a teh sng lai sng khi, siam lai siam khi
kau louboe taute seh khi kau toh--a soah ju lai ju hoe
Tekhoa
----- Original Message -----
寄件者: Lau Seng-hian
收件者: 台語網
傳送日期: 2009年3月25日 下午 04:53
主旨: [tgb] Re: TL kah POJ e chhiongtut
Tekhoa,
你講 tioh 我無了解 e 部份，請 thiah 白，我想 beh 學。
多謝！
Seng-hian
2009/3/25 Tekhoa
Seng-hian hiaN
li e kong-hoat siuN-koe ui-sim--a (唯心)
Tekhoa
----- Original Message -----
**寄件者:**
Lau Seng-hian
**收件者:** 台語網
**傳送日期:** 2009年3月25日 下午 03:20
**主旨:** [tgb] Re: TL kah POJ e chhiongtut
Un-gian 兄：
你講「chiiau lan beh suiong Taibun, in to e iong chiokhau ka lan chhe mahoan」，tse 真正確，我完全贊成，若你所問 e 問題，我頭前 e 文章已經回答--過-a：我當然無 beh 放棄台文，而且無 beh 放棄 kap in hit 陣殖民主義者爭取 tsiah-e 公資源（he long 是咱納 e 稅金--neh，咱 to iau 無學 Thoreau 實行公民無服從 tsuann-a 無 beh 納稅--leh）。
Kah 若咱無 beh 放棄 kap in ti 公機構內底 sio 戰（咱 ma 實際上按呢 teh 做--ah，無，咱是按怎發動遊行去抗議台語認證預算刪除？），咱當然 ai「親像蛇 hiah-nih 靈巧，親像粉鳥 hiah-nih 馴良」，thah 有理由 ka-ti 做球 hoo 對敵來 phah e 可能性？
我 koh 說明--1-pai，我所講--e，單純是「公部門 e 出版品 e 書寫系統」，m 是 beh 講 thong 台灣 thong 世界 e 台文書寫系統。
承接頂頭 tsit 段：事實是，無人 beh 消滅傳統 POJ，ti tsit-e 社會背景--nih，ma 無可能透過法律、暴力來消滅傳統 POJ，當然，有人可能 e 講：資源分配 kap 公部門規範就牽涉著象徵暴力（symbolic violence)，總--是，咱若 beh 按呢問，請先翻頭想看咱 kam beh 放棄介入公部門運作，咱 kam 無想 beh ka tsit-e 文化資本再生產 e 力量 ka seh 轉頭，tshue 機會 ka tsit-e ke-si 搶--過-來。（完全體制外 e 運動若 beh 成功，ti tsit-e 媒體 kap 教育普及 e 背景--nih，只有流血暴力革命，m 知 kam 有人有決心、有興趣 mai kan-tann 用 tshui 唇皮，beh 親身去試？）
傳統 POJ 無受著 Un-gian 兄你所講 e hit 款驚--人 e 壓迫 e 事實是：你 kap 有志所做 e 濟濟 POJ e 資源，包括網路、出版品等等，long iau teh 運作、成長。 Hak-khiam 兄講 i 看著有新 e POJ 出版品 tsiok 歡喜--e，我 ma 是 sio-siang--ah！
上尾，關係分做兩派 e 問題，請 tak-e m-thang be 記得 1 件代誌，tann e TL 支持者內底，除了原底使用傳統 POJ e 人，koh 有過去使用 TLPA 等其他系統 e 人，換話來講，若以 POJ e 角度來看，是使用 POJ e 人變 khah 濟--a，使用其他系統 e 人變 khah 少--a，咱 kam 有分派？我看著--e，是咱 e 整合有效果，咱 tioh khah 細 ji 來維持 tsit-e 成果，ti 政府 kap 民間 tsit 兩部份，繼續 kap 壓迫台文 e 人鬥爭 tsiah tioh。
2009/3/25 Iunn Un-gian
Seng-hian :
Goa beh kong e si, chiiau lan beh suiong Taibun, in to e iong chiokhau ka lan chhe mahoan, sou-i goa jim-ui, kasu lan boai hou in kihoe ka lan chhe mahoan, uiit e honghoat tosi hongkhi Taibun, che tongjian paukoah hongkhi TL, anne li kam beh ? Nasi li kianchhi beh suiong Taibun, goa kiangi li mai iong Ang a siuthiau kong e liiu lai tholun chit-e buntoe.
seksu lunbun, phoksu lunbun, iahkoh kongpoumng e chhutpanphin, li kam kahkteng Khehoe kah Goanchubingu e susia hethong long it-ti ? Goa siuN si bo-iaN lah. Kijian bo-iaN, Taigu e bo itti na e piNchoe hiahni siongtiong e taichi ?
Taigu e pouhun, tuliau TL, KIP ma u pan Taigu phengim pisai, iahkoh u kongpou 400 jisu a, suijian kau chitma goa mbat khoaN tioh Taigubang to 1 e lang u chunchiau KIP e Hanji kuihoan tih suiong, paukoah KhinhoaN hiaN. 1-hong-bin, KIP e hanji kuihoan lan iah bo beh chun-siu, 1-hong-bin, koh u lang kiongliat iaukiu lan ai chunsiu KIP TL e kuihoan, che kam bo chhiongtut ?
Suijian luisu e buntoe lan chincheng ikeng kong ke a, chong--si, KhinhoaN hiaN mna 1-pai thekhi, TL thuisak hiahni khunlan, tosi lin chia e long bo beh chichhi. Goa jim-ui thuisak untong sinkhou, lang ma long u cheng-su, kamkah koh tholun ma bo tekpiat e igi, chong--si, chang hoatseng e taichi, ikeng chhiauke goa etang jim-siu e thengtou a. Goa chinchiaN jim-ui, anne bu lohkhi, TL iahbe thuisak sengkong, goanlai POJ e lang ikeng hunchoe 2-phai.
Kisit, chhiaN takke lai siatsiong taichi e ianpian, goa kong goa kojin to ho. 1-khoan si, goa suiong POJ, chhekliok siong goa ma chichhi TL (che si goa goanlai e phahsng) lenggoa 1-khoan chengheng si, goa hong ap-pek boetang suiong POJ, ai kai cho TL, liauau goa khaisi sia bunchiuN phoepheng chichhi TL e lang e luntiam, koh ka goa koanli e bangcham iukoan TL e pouhun longchong theh tiau.
Takke khah hibong khoaNtioh siaNme khoan e kiatko ? Goa kamkah KhinhoaN hiaN ittit beh pek goa kiaN te 2 tiau lou, suijian goa iah bo siuNbeh anne cho.
KhinhoaN hiaN bat ka goa kong, lan e Taigubun untong e sitpai, longsi inui lan kaki e lang. Che ma chiaNchiaN si goa e simsiaN, chisi i jim-ui e hia e lang, kah goa jim-ui e hia e lang, si bokang 1-tin lang.
Ungian 3.25
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009 14:15:38 +0800, Lau Seng-hian wrote
> Ún-giân 兄： > > 「系統無一致」，是洪 á 秀柱 in ê
藉口內底 ê 1 ê，當然 m̄ 是 in 心內正港 ê 理由，我 ê 意思是：咱 kám 有必要替 in 製造機會 hō͘ in 起
khang 起 sún？ > > 第二，我所講 ê「一致」，是指「政府／公部門」出版品頂 kuân 書寫系統 ê
一致，m̄ 是指通台灣一致，你舉 Hak-fa kap 原住民語 ê 例，請想看 māi：Hak-fa kap 原住民語辦認證 tsìn 前，是
m̄ 是 mā 有透過程序做書寫系統 ê 規範？另外，「政府／公部門」ê 出版品內底，kám 有可能無照政府本身所公佈 ê 書寫系統？ 因為
m̄ 管按怎講，「政府」有 teh 出面辦 tsiah-ê 認證考試，kám m̄ 是？ > > 請
m̄-thang 誤解，我當然無 kā 顧面桶取消 hō͘ 母語 tshui-sak ê 政府資源，來怪罪無使用 TL ê 人，tse 無合
tī 我頭前 hit 篇文章 ê 意思，另外，關係李勤岸老師 ê 部份，我無法度替伊發言，我 kan-taⁿ ē-tàng 講我 ka-tī ê
想法。 >
《台文 BONG 報》kap《台文通訊》lóng 是民間機構，政府對 in ê 刊物發行無用資源支持，in ê 編輯、政策，是董事會等來做決定，封殺傳統 POJ ê 發表空間，相信 m̄ 是 in 採用 TL ê 目標。
> > 2009/3/25 Lau Seng-hian >
Ún-giân
兄： > > 「系統無一致」，是洪 á 秀柱 in ê 藉口內底 ê 1 ê，當然 m̄ 是 in 心內正港 ê
理由，我 ê 意思是：咱 kám 有必要替 in 製造機會 hō͘ in 起 khang 起 sún？ > >
第二，我所講 ê「一致」，是指「政府／公部門」出版品頂 kuân 書寫系統 ê 一致，m̄ 是指通台灣一致，你舉 Hak-fa kap
原住民語 ê 例，請想看 māi：Hak-fa kap 原住民語辦認證 tsìn 前，是 m̄ 是 mā 有透過程序做書寫系統 ê
規範？另外，「政府／公部門」ê 出版品內底，kám 有可能無照政府本身所公佈 ê 書寫系統？ 因為 m̄ 管按怎講，「政府」有 teh
出面辦 tsiah-ê 認證考試，kám m̄ 是？ > > 請 m̄-thang 誤解，我當然無 kā
顧面桶取消 hō͘ 母語 tshui-sak ê 政府資源，來怪罪無使用 TL ê 人，tse 無合 tī 我頭前 hit 篇文章 ê
意思，另外，關係李勤岸老師 ê 部份，我無法度替伊發言，我 kan-taⁿ ē-tàng 講我 ka-tī ê 想法。 >
《台文 BONG 報》kap《台文通訊》lóng 是民間機構，政府對
2009/3/25 Iunn Un-gian
Seng-hian :
Kasu suiong bo it-ti to boesai pan jim-cheng, goa e siuNhoat si
(1) Hoagu boesai pan jim-cheng (Kok-hau ka chu-im, tengbin u e sak Thongiong, u e sak Hangu phengim, binkan ma iahkoh kui lo tho (2) Khehoe kah Goanchubingu ma boesai pan jim-cheng.
Nasi chite liiu senglip, goa siuN, KhinhoaN hiaN chit-si-lang bo kholeng tan tioh Taigu jim-cheng e keng-hui.
Goa boetang liongkai e si, lin ho-pit ka Kok-bin-tong boai poah Taigu jim-cheng kenghui hou lan, koaichoe ti sia Taigu, mkoh bo suiong TL e lang !
Kasu lin ka bo iong TL sia Taigu e lang e hoatpiau khongkan long hongsat, chhun boai sia Taibun, mkoh kholeng khauthau chichhi TL e lang, Taigu jim-cheng e kenghui simsi to e lohlai ? Taigubun untong nasi chengkeng kiaN kau chit e toe-pou, li kam jim-ui thuisak TL si sengkong e ?
Ungian 3.25
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009 13:38:46 +0800, Lau Seng-hian wrote
我 [UTF-8?]礙 想法:
顧面桶 tik 實 [UTF-8?]b� 信用--得。就親像 [UTF-8?]Ha法-khiam 兄 kap [UTF-8?]J贖-kh獺i [UTF-8?]�栋�雓�--礙嚗鉴県�嗥钏�� beh 放棄民間 [UTF-8?]礙 力量，總--是，咱 [UTF-8?]獺n-ne 講 [UTF-8?]礙 [UTF-8?]�恠�k獺m 就代表咱「完全無 beh �k用政府機構內底 [UTF-8?]礙 資源」，iah 是咱「完全無想 beh 促成政府政策 [UTF-8?]礙 tshui-sak kap 改變？」頂 [UTF-8?]ku璽n [UTF-8?]tsit-礙 [UTF-8?]�镣�嚗鹤�n [UTF-8?]雓�霁伨�弪� 人，有資格 [UTF-8�n]khi�-th簾ng-th簾ng �H [UTF-8?]huah-hi鄉 i 無 beh [UTF-8?]hi羅 羅馬字整合，無 beh tshap KIP；若是 [UTF-8?]穫n�嗫� [UTF-8?]�胯�弪� 人，或者是有 bat 使用(∕爭取∕想 beh 利用) 政府資源 �H [UTF-8?]礙 人，kap [UTF-8?]i獺u-koh 想 beh 造成政策改變 [UTF-8?]礙 人，beh [UTF-8?]獺n-tsu獺�� 有立場 [UTF-8?]獺n-ne 講，我想 [UTF-8?]b�-hi獺u��
> > 上基本 [UTF-8?]礙 1 點是：政府機構∕公機關 [UTF-8?]礙 [UTF-8?]�箇��睻�tio去 一致使用 KIP [UTF-8?]�啁�嚗鹤》-ne ts�tah [UTF-8?]b� [UTF-8?]h要g [UTF-8?]khi�嚗霁揪 [UTF-8?]獺 秀柱 in 刪除台語認證 [UTF-8?]礙 預算 [UTF-8?]礙 時，有起 1 [UTF-8?]礙 攔頭號做「拼音系統 [UTF-8?]i獺u-bu� [UTF-8?]銝��湛��⊥�閰脰齒隤诎��饥岫��O�k獺m 講咱 beh 大大典典用行動證明 in [UTF-8?]m��O�O�kteh [UTF-8?]hau-si璽u嚗��O > > 除非，咱有影按算 beh 據在 [UTF-8?]tsit-礙 政府去舞，無 beh [UTF-8?]the多 i 1 [UTF-8?]si獺n 錢，無 beh ka sak ka [UTF-8?]tu多嚗鞑访--tsi獺嚗鉴県 [UTF-8?]tio去 翻頭想看咱 beh [UTF-8?]khi� [UTF-8?]si獺��-mih 款立場。2009/3/26 gmail
Goa siuN. Chit e bun-toe e-sai hun-choe kui-a hong-bin lai su-kho:
- su-iong chia (khan-siap lang-sou, LMJ i-goan, kap thai-tou)
- chhui-sak chia (che si thai-tou bun-toe)
- koaN-hong (chit e tan-ui m-bat chhui-sak koe LMJ) Goa beh kong e chu-iau si KIP [UTF-8?]法ap che-teng TL e pou-hun:
TL kap POJ, i bok-chian kho-ki (tian-chu hoa) lai-kong, choan-oaN si chin kan-tan e tai-chi, ia-toh-si tian-chu liu-thoan bo jim-ho e khun-lan (chhiaN
> chham-kho TG SBA), sou-i khoaN--khi-lai chi-si, su-sia kap in-soat e > soan-tek bun-toe ji-i. Khin-hoaN hiaN it-tit kong KIP kong-pou, lan tioh > long eng-kai chiau cho. U I khou-sim e sou-chai. M-ku, goa jin-ui KMT e KIP
chu thau kau boe long m-bat ka lan tau-saN-kang siaN-mih, lan ho-pit thiaN in e. Lan pun-lai tioh-si bin-kan e chu-hoat heng-tong. KoaN-hong bo the-thiap bin-cheng, che si sit-bin-chia e sim-thai. Lan beh khi hou I
au--khi. Ki-sit goa si chin m-goan. Koh chai kong, che-teng TL e ui-goan, tu-liau Khin-hoaN hiaN, chi-goa kam koh u lang teh chhui-sak LMJ???? [UTF-8?]點n kam
bat sia koe TGB, iah-si jim-ho bun-chiuN kong beh chhui-sak LMJ ??? [UTF-8?]點n
bo-lang teh eng, choaN chai-iaN POJ kap TL e ho-bai, iah-si i-keng
> lau--loh-lai e chu-goan u siaN-mih. Koe-khi hun-tau e seng-ko(ChhiaN > chham-kho Un-gian hiaN e bang-cham), In oe 1 oe tioh long hu-siau. Chin > kho-oN! > Chiau chit e pan-se, Lan bo-kho-leng u kian-choan e chit-jit. Hit jit na beh > lai, in he KIP koaN-oan iu-koh lai 1 e hoe, ka Li hu-tiau. Chin kin, Chin > khoai!!!!
Sou-i goa jin-ui, Lan 1) seng chhui-kong LMJ su-sia TGB 2) Su-iong siong-choe chu-goan e POJ, ke-siok cheng-ka POJ chu-goan. [UTF-8?]你n-ni, chiu-sng
> KIP hoaiN-pa-pa, lan ma boe tng-kun khi. NA-si toe KIP, chin-chiaN beh si > m-chai tang-si. >
Khai
----- Original Message ----- From: "Hak-khiam TiuN"
To: "Tekhoa"
Cc: "Taigibang"
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 7:03 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [tgb] Re: TL kah POJ e chhiongtutTak-ke ho:Ungian hiaN theh-chhut chit e bun-te, goa siuN chin tat-tit tho-lun. Tong-jian i kong e POJ & TL e chhiong-tut chi-si POJ & TL koan-he e
chit-chiong. E hong u chhiong-tut e kam-kak ma chin ho li-kai, in-ui POJ & TL e
chi-chhi-chia u teng-thah, koh ka-siong pun-te su-iong POJ e Tai-bun chap-chi, c.c. Bong-po, TBTS long kai-iong TL. Chit-si-kan POJ soah bo saN hoat-piau e khong-kan.POJ & TL leng-goa chit e kho-leng e koan-he si kiong-chun, hun-kang.
Bo su-iau ti chit 2 e he-thong soan-tek,
> 2 e long chi-chhi, m-koh ki-jian koaN-hong chi-chhi TL, ti kau-iok > the-che, cheng-hu e kang-teng tioh chiau cheng-hu > e kui-teng khi kiaN, chhun-e bin-kan e LMJ ke-siok su-iong POJ, che si > goa chin-cheng thiaN lang ka goa kong bi-lai > POJ & TL e koan-he, chit-ma cho-liau an-choaN goa bo-kai chheng-chho. > Thui-sak TL e lang chin sin-khou, goa kan-ta ng-bang > m-thang ka POJ e chun-chai, su-iong tong-cho si TL thui-sak sit-pai e > piau-si. Goa ko-jin e-tang tong-si chi-chhi POJ & TL, > m-koh na iau-kiu goa hong-khi POJ chiah sng si chi-chhi TL, goa jin-ui > bo pit-iau. Goa tak-pai khi chheh-kiok na khoaN-tioh > koh u POJ e ji-tian ah-si chheh chhut-pan long e chin hoaN-hi. Bun-ji > e seN-mia-lek bo hoat-tou thau-koe cheng-hu e hoat-leng lai ui-chhi, > bin-kan chu-hoat-seng e, tng-ki-e su-iong chiah-si tiong-iau. > > I-siong 2 chiong POJ & TL e koan-he tak-ke bong chham-kho, kho-leng > koh u ki-tha e kho-leng-seng. > > Hak-khiam > > 2009/3/25 Tekhoa : > > Apang hiaN kap tak-e: > > > > goa chanseng ai tholun > > > > 1) kian-na tu tioh chit-khoan bunte, chong--si e u lang khng kong au-jit-a > > chiah tholun > > [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� kiatko iaubpe tan kau au-jit-a, bunte mna bo kaikoat, soah ju bun jugiamtiong
2) "hun-liat" chit-hang taichi punlai to bian khoan kah hiah tang [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]真i tioh thoankiat boai ka taichi kong beng,
> [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]群itche siong tianto e checho hunliat3) chiaN che lang long ittit kong TL iah si POJ tak-e beh sia toh 1 tho to
sia toh 1 tho [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� kong si bo m-tioh, mkoh che oe soah ma siuN koe khang
[UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� na bo, si anchoaN e ittit u iaukiu patlang sia/kai cho TL e chengheng
> chhut-hian? > > 4) tenghoe tholun kau chit-e bunte e si, goa u the-chhut kong: > [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� si, bo mtioh, takl-e chuiu soantek beh iong toh 1 tho > [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� mkoh tauko--chhut-khi toa pouhun e souchai long iaukiu ai iong TL
[UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� anne, chit khoan "chu-iu5" u siaNmih i-gi?
Tekhoa ----- Original Message ----- 寄件者: apang.chiu
收件者:
副本: TGB(G) ; Tavokan Kh㮮 Hu䁢ῠ ; Iunn Un-gian
傳送日期: 2009年3月24日 下午 11:45
主旨: [tgb] Re: TL kah POJ e chhiongtut Kok-ui :
Sio-ti kian-gi pat-jit thang-lai tho-lun.
Lan bo hun-liat e pun. Kat thau ho* khui, m-thang lu phah lu an, pian si-kat,
> Kho-lu siong-se. > Pai-thok ! > > A-pang > > PS : Teng-koan/ting-kuan e gi-su POJ kap TL long e thong, kam m-si? > ChhiaN/tshiann sam-su. > -----Original message----- > From:Kei TADA > To:Iunn Un-gian > Cc:Tai-gu-bang , > Date:Tue, 24 Mar 2009 17:12:15 +0900 > Subject:[tgb] Re: TL kah POJ e chhiongtut > >
Ungian hiaN,
> Goa e chu-i Ungian hiaN sou the-khi chit-e bun-te.> > > > TLPA ah-si TL si, i POJ cho ki-chhou e he-thong. > > > > Su-iong TLPA ah-si TL bo eng-kai ap-pek POJ e su-iong. > >
TL na jim-tong POJ cho i e bo-chhin, chi-chhi POJ e lang chiah e chi-chhi TL.
> > Lan na e-sai chham-u hun-hoa le?> > > > TADA > > > > 2009/3/24 Iunn Un-gian : > >> Takke ho : > >> > >> Suijian chia e buntoe chincheng ikeng u tholun ke a, goa ma bo siuNbeh ke > >> kong, mkoh kinajit koh hoatseng 1-koa taichi, jichhiaN kah KhinhoaN hiaN > >> u
koanhe.
> >> Goa chincheng hoanlo e, TL iahbe sengkong, goanlai suiong POJ e lang soah > >> hun choe 2-phai. Chite buntoe, khoaN khilai iahkoh si chin giamtiong. > >> > >> Goa chitma chin bo-eng, taichi long cho boe oan, soui goa kholeng e 4/15 > >> i-au, chhe sikan tiam Taigubang hoho-a lai kong chit kiaN taichi e
kengke, kah goa e siuNhoat.
Goa jim-ui nasi chhuli bo ho, Tailohoe ma e chhuthian chenggi, choseng
TLH e
>> hunliat. Si annoa goa e anne kong, inui chincheng KhinhoaN hiaN bat >> uitioh >> TLH bo suiong TL, kong beh si lisu, chitma KhinhoaN hiaN si TLH e >> siong-bu >> lisu, soui chit-e buntoe itteng e koh toa jipkhi TLH.> >> > >> Suijian Taibunkoan hitpeng jimtong goa e chohoat, mkoh choeau goa iong > >> POJ > >> sia e bunchiuN, pitsu ai kai cho TL. LMJ susia hethong hiahni choe, 10 > >> kui
tang chincheng, goa e LMJ hong kai choe Thong-iong hengsek e LMJ, goa bat kongkhai khonggi, bo siuNtioh chitpai soah si hou kaki e lang kiongpek ai
siukai, goa boe kongkhai khonggi, mkoh choattui e kongkhai tholun chit chan
taichi.
> >> Inui goa jim-ui nasi bo tholun, POj e suiong e kesiok hou TL appek. Lan > >> na > >> chaiiaN lan bo hunliat e punchiN, si annoa chitkhoan taichi e itchai > >> hoatseng ? > >> > >> -- > >> Iunn Un-gian 楊允言 > >> Tai-han Chu-kang-he Chou-li kau-siu大漢資工系助理教授 > >> (O) 03-821-0871 > >> [http://iug.csie.dahan.edu.tw](http://iug.csie.dahan.edu.tw/) > >> > >> > > >>
> > > > > > > >
-- Lau, Seng-hian [UTF-8?]嚚靁访 koh 在定，ma [UTF-8?]�⊥粐憭綨�嚚�
-- Iunn Un-gian 楊允言
Tai-han Chu-kang-he Chou-li kau-siu大漢資工系助理教授 (O) 03-821-0871 http://iug.csie.dahan.edu.tw
-- Lau, Seng-hian
～無 koh 在定，ma 無放外外～
-- Lau, Seng-hian
～無 koh 在定，ma 無放外外～
-- Iunn Un-gian 楊允言
Tai-han Chu-kang-he Chou-li kau-siu大漢資工系助理教授 (O) 03-821-0871
-- Lau, Seng-hian
～無 koh 在定，ma 無放外外～
-- Lau, Seng-hian
～無 koh 在定，ma 無放外外～
Re: [tgb] Re: TL kah POJ e chhiongtut
From: Iunn Un-gian
Date: 2009-03-26 16:51:40
Takke ho :
Tuchiah u lang kah goa lianlok, kiangi koanhe TL kah POJ e tholun mai kongkhai tholun, phiahbian Thongiong e lang lai phohoai.
Goa tong-i chit-e hongsek lai chhuli chit-e buntoe.
Goa kausi iahsi e ka choekun hoatseng e taichi long chengli lohlai,khng ti Blog chongsi e soantek bo kongkhai e hongsek, tosi ai thauke bitbe chiah etang khoaN, jichhiaN bitbe kholeng e 1-toaN sikan to oaN 1-e, u chhubi beh tholun e lang chiah ka goa tho bitbe.
Chitma e buntoe si, bokchian Taigubang kam u koanli chia, etang ka chit 2 kang e tholun theh tiau.
Tongjian, chiu bokchian e hoattian, simsi u theh tiau, kholeng ma msi chiok tiongiau.
Ungian 3.26
On Thu, 26 Mar 2009 14:40:45 +0800, Tekhoa wrote
goa seng kantan anne kong
untong e hoattian, u-si-a sio-khoa seh 1-e-a lou, hoan-se
to seh beh tng--lai-a
u-si-a niu--1-e, to hong au3--koe-a
che msi chu2-koan jin-ui e iah boe, u kianchhi iah bo
kianchhi e bunte
Taitok untong e piancho teh uihou ROC, to si anne
choseng--e
inui lan e untong khiamkhoat susiong
kantaN ti chhek-liok teng--a teh sng lai sng khi, siam lai
siam khi
kau louboe taute seh khi kau toh--a soah ju lai ju
hoe
Tekhoa
----- Original Message -----
寄件者: Lau Seng-hian
收件者: 台語網
傳送日期: 2009年3月25日 下午 04:53
主旨: [tgb] Re: TL kah POJ e
chhiongtut
Tekhoa,
你講 tioh 我無了解 e 部份，請 thiah 白，我想 beh
學。
多謝！
Seng-hian
2009/3/25 Tekhoa
Seng-hian hiaN
li e kong-hoat siuN-koe ui-sim--a (唯心)
Tekhoa
----- Original Message -----
寄件者:
Lau Seng-hian
收件者: 台語網
傳送日期: 2009年3月25日 下午 03:20
主旨: [tgb] Re: TL kah POJ e chhiongtut
Un-gian 兄：
你講「chiiau lan beh suiong Taibun, in to e iong chiokhau ka lan chhe
mahoan」，tse 真正確，我完全贊成，若你所問 e 問題，我頭前 e 文章已經回答--過-a：我當然無 beh 放棄台文，而且無 beh 放棄
kap in hit 陣殖民主義者爭取 tsiah-e 公資源（he long 是咱納 e 稅金--neh，咱 to iau 無學 Thoreau
實行公民無服從 tsuann-a 無 beh 納稅--leh）。
Kah 若咱無 beh 放棄 kap in ti 公機構內底 sio
戰（咱 ma 實際上按呢 teh 做--ah，無，咱是按怎發動遊行去抗議台語認證預算刪除？），咱當然 ai「親像蛇 hiah-nih 靈巧，親像粉鳥
hiah-nih 馴良」，thah 有理由 ka-ti 做球 hoo 對敵來 phah e 可能性？
我 koh
說明--1-pai，我所講--e，單純是「公部門 e 出版品 e 書寫系統」，m 是 beh 講 thong 台灣 thong 世界 e
台文書寫系統。
承接頂頭 tsit 段：事實是，無人 beh 消滅傳統 POJ，ti tsit-e 社會背景--nih，ma
無可能透過法律、暴力來消滅傳統 POJ，當然，有人可能 e 講：資源分配 kap 公部門規範就牽涉著象徵暴力（symbolic
violence)，總--是，咱若 beh 按呢問，請先翻頭想看咱 kam beh 放棄介入公部門運作，咱 kam 無想 beh ka tsit-e
文化資本再生產 e 力量 ka seh 轉頭，tshue 機會 ka tsit-e ke-si 搶--過-來。（完全體制外 e 運動若 beh
成功，ti tsit-e 媒體 kap 教育普及 e 背景--nih，只有流血暴力革命，m 知 kam 有人有決心、有興趣 mai kan-tann
用 tshui 唇皮，beh 親身去試？）
傳統 POJ 無受著 Un-gian 兄你所講 e hit 款驚--人 e 壓迫 e
事實是：你 kap 有志所做 e 濟濟 POJ e 資源，包括網路、出版品等等，long iau teh 運作、成長。 Hak-khiam 兄講 i
看著有新 e POJ 出版品 tsiok 歡喜--e，我 ma 是 sio-siang--ah！
上尾，關係分做兩派 e 問題，請
tak-e m-thang be 記得 1 件代誌，tann e TL 支持者內底，除了原底使用傳統 POJ e 人，koh 有過去使用 TLPA
等其他系統 e 人，換話來講，若以 POJ e 角度來看，是使用 POJ e 人變 khah 濟--a，使用其他系統 e 人變 khah
少--a，咱 kam 有分派？我看著--e，是咱 e 整合有效果，咱 tioh khah 細 ji 來維持 tsit-e 成果，ti 政府 kap
民間 tsit 兩部份，繼續 kap 壓迫台文 e 人鬥爭 tsiah tioh。
2009/3/25 Iunn Un-gian
Seng-hian :
Goa beh kong e
si, chiiau lan beh suiong Taibun, in to e iong chiokhau ka lan chhe
mahoan, sou-i goa jim-ui, kasu lan boai hou in kihoe ka lan chhe mahoan,
uiit e honghoat tosi hongkhi Taibun, che tongjian paukoah hongkhi TL,
anne li kam beh ? Nasi li kianchhi beh suiong Taibun, goa kiangi li mai
iong Ang a siuthiau kong e liiu lai tholun chit-e buntoe.
seksu
lunbun, phoksu lunbun, iahkoh kongpoumng e chhutpanphin, li kam kahkteng
Khehoe kah Goanchubingu e susia hethong long it-ti ? Goa siuN si bo-iaN
lah. Kijian bo-iaN, Taigu e bo itti na e piNchoe hiahni siongtiong e
taichi ?
Taigu e pouhun, tuliau TL, KIP ma u pan Taigu phengim
pisai, iahkoh u kongpou 400 jisu a, suijian kau chitma goa mbat khoaN
tioh Taigubang to 1 e lang u chunchiau KIP e Hanji kuihoan tih suiong,
paukoah KhinhoaN hiaN. 1-hong-bin, KIP e hanji kuihoan lan iah bo beh
chun-siu, 1-hong-bin, koh u lang kiongliat iaukiu lan ai chunsiu KIP TL
e kuihoan, che kam bo chhiongtut ?
Suijian luisu e buntoe lan
chincheng ikeng kong ke a, chong--si, KhinhoaN hiaN mna 1-pai thekhi, TL
thuisak hiahni khunlan, tosi lin chia e long bo beh chichhi. Goa jim-ui
thuisak untong sinkhou, lang ma long u cheng-su, kamkah koh tholun ma bo
tekpiat e igi, chong--si, chang hoatseng e taichi, ikeng chhiauke goa
etang jim-siu e thengtou a. Goa chinchiaN jim-ui, anne bu lohkhi, TL
iahbe thuisak sengkong, goanlai POJ e lang ikeng hunchoe 2-phai.
Kisit, chhiaN takke lai siatsiong taichi e ianpian, goa kong goa
kojin to ho.
1-khoan si, goa suiong POJ, chhekliok siong goa ma
chichhi TL (che si goa goanlai e phahsng)
lenggoa 1-khoan
chengheng si, goa hong ap-pek boetang suiong POJ, ai kai cho TL, liauau
goa khaisi sia bunchiuN phoepheng chichhi TL e lang e luntiam, koh ka
goa koanli e bangcham iukoan TL e pouhun longchong theh tiau.
Takke khah hibong khoaNtioh siaNme khoan e kiatko ? Goa kamkah
KhinhoaN hiaN ittit beh pek goa kiaN te 2 tiau lou, suijian goa iah bo
siuNbeh anne cho.
KhinhoaN hiaN bat ka goa
kong, lan e Taigubun untong e
sitpai, longsi inui lan kaki e lang. Che ma chiaNchiaN si goa e simsiaN,
chisi i jim-ui e hia e lang, kah goa jim-ui e hia e lang, si bokang
1-tin lang.
Ungian 3.25
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009 14:15:38 +0800, Lau Seng-hian wrote
[UTF-8?]要-gi璽n 兄：
「系統無一致」，是洪 [UTF-8?]獺 秀柱 in [UTF-8?]礙
藉口內底 [UTF-8?]礙 1 [UTF-8?]礙嚗鞑珏�� [UTF-8?]m� �O in 心內正港 [UTF-8?]礙 理由，我 [UTF-8?]礙 意思是：咱 [UTF-8?]k獺m 有必要替 in 製造機會 [UTF-8?]h�� in 起
khang 起 [UTF-8?]s繳n嚗�
第二，我所講 [UTF-8?]礙�铸��氬��O��舀��霁粭摨门��祇们����n婵�历��� [UTF-8?]ku璽n 是寫系統 [UTF-8?]礙
�n [UTF-8?]銝��湛�m� 是指通台灣一致，你舉 Hak-fa kap 原住民語 [UTF-8?]礙 �m，請想看 [UTF-8?]m張嚗⒏ak-fa kap 原住民語辦認證 [UTF-8?]ts穫n 前，是
[UTF-8?]m� �O [UTF-8?]m� 有透過程序做書寫系統 [UTF-8?]礙 [UTF-8?�O閬镨�嚗蓢镓憭橥��霁粭摨门��祇们���弪� [UTF-8?]�箇��癴须摨凉法獺m 有可能無照政府本身所公佈 [UTF-8?]礙 書寫系統？ 因為
[UTF-8?]m� 管按怎講，「政府」有 teh 出面辦 [UTF-8?]tsiah-礙 [UTF-8?]隤诎��饥岫嚗龄獺m [UTF-8?]m� �O？
請
[UTF-8?]m�-thang�O誤解，我當然無 [UTF-8?]k� 顧面桶取消 [UTF-8?]h�� 母語 tshui-sak [UTF-8?]礙 政府資源，來怪罪無使用 TL [UTF-8?]礙 人，tse 無合
[UTF-8?]t蘋 我頭前 hit 篇文章 [UTF-8?]礙 意思，另外，關係李勤岸老師 [UTF-8?]礙 部份，我無法度替伊發言，我 [UTF-8?]kan-ta�� [UTF-8?]�-t�ng 講我 [UTF-8?]ka-t蘋 [UTF-8?]礙
想法。�n
《台文 BONG [UTF-8?]�晞�鹃ap�箫阋�浆�梈��鹅籀ng 是民間機構，政府對 in [UTF-8?]礙
刊物發行無用資源支持，in [UTF-8?]礙 編輯、政策，是董事會等來做決定，封殺傳統 POJ [UTF-8?]礙 發表空間，相信 [UTF-8?]m� �O in 採用 TL [UTF-8?]礙 目標。
�O 2009/3/25 Lau Seng-hian
要-gi璽n
兄：
「系統無一致」，是洪 [UTF-8?]獺 秀柱 in [UTF-8?]礙 藉口內底 [UTF-8?]礙 1 [UTF-8?]礙嚗鞑珏�� [UTF-8?]m� �O in 心內正港 [UTF-8?]礙
理由，我 [UTF-8?]是 意思是：咱 [UTF-8?]k獺m 有必要替 in 製造機會 [UTF-8?]h�� in 起 khang 起 [UTF-8?]s繳n嚗�
第二，我所講 [UTF-8?]礙�铸��氬��O��舀��霁粭摨门��祇们����n婵�历��� [UTF-8?]ku璽n 書寫系統 [UT�O-8?]礙 [UTF-8?]銝���n�m� 是指通台灣一致，你舉 Hak-fa kap
原住民語 [UTF-8�m]礙 例，請想看 [UTF-8?]m張嚗⒏ak-fa kap 原住民語辦認證 [UTF-8?]ts穫n 前，是 [UTF-8?]m� �O [UTF-8?]m� 有透過程序做書寫系統 [UTF-8?]礙
[UT�O-8?]閬镨�嚗蓢镓憭橥��霁粭摨门��祇们���弪� [UTF-8?]�箇��癴须摨凉法獺m 有可能無照政府本身所公佈 [UTF-8?]礙 書寫系統？ 因為 [UTF-8?]m� 管按怎講，「政府」有 teh
出面辦 [UTF-8?]tsiah-礙 [UTF-8?]隤诎��饥岫嚗龄獺m [UTF-8?]m� �O？
請 [UTF-8?]m�-thang 誤解，我當然無 [UTF-8?]�O�
顧面桶取消 [UTF-8?]h�� 母語 tshui-sak [UTF-8?]礙 政府資源，來怪罪無使用 TL [UTF-8?]礙 人，tse 無合 [UTF-8?]t蘋 我頭前 hit 篇文章 [UTF-8?]礙
意思，另外，關係李勤岸老師 [UTF-8?]礙 部份，我無法度替伊發言，我 [UTF-8?]kan-ta�� [UTF-8?]�-t�ng 講我 [UTF-8?]ka-t蘋 [UTF-8?]礙 想法。
�n
《台文 BONG [UTF-8?]�晞�鹃ap�箫阋�浆�梈��鹅籀ng 是民間機構，政府對
2009/3/25 Iunn Un-gian
Seng-hian :
Kasu suiong bo it-ti to boesai pan jim-cheng, goa e siuNhoat si
(1) Hoagu boesai pan jim-cheng (Kok-hau ka chu-im, tengbin
u e sak Thongiong, u e sak Hangu phengim, binkan ma iahkoh kui lo
tho
(2) Khehoe kah Goanchubingu ma boesai pan jim-cheng.
Nasi chite liiu senglip, goa siuN, KhinhoaN hiaN
chit-si-lang bo kholeng tan tioh Taigu jim-cheng e keng-hui.
Goa boetang liongkai e si, lin ho-pit ka
Kok-bin-tong boai poah Taigu jim-cheng kenghui hou lan, koaichoe ti
sia Taigu, mkoh bo suiong TL e lang !
Kasu lin ka
bo iong TL sia Taigu e lang e hoatpiau khongkan long hongsat, chhun
boai sia Taibun, mkoh kholeng khauthau chichhi TL e lang, Taigu
jim-cheng e kenghui simsi to e lohlai ? Taigubun untong nasi
chengkeng kiaN kau chit e toe-pou, li kam jim-ui thuisak TL si
sengkong e ?
Ungian 3.25
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009 13:38:46 +0800, Lau Seng-hian
wrote
我 [UTF-8?]礙 想法:
顧面桶 tik 實 [UTF-8?][UTF-8?]b嚙� 信用--得。就親像 [UTF-8?][UTF-8?]Ha嚙糊-khiam 兄 kap
[UTF-8?]J贖-kh獺i [UTF-8?][UTF-8?]嚙賣 劝蕭�暦蕭--蝷⒠��渡�嚙賢鞒�阚蕭嚙� beh 放棄民間 [UTF-8?]礙
力量，總--是，咱 [UTF-8?]獺n-ne 講 [UTF-8?]礙 [UTF-8?][UTF-8?]嚙賣�嚙�k��m 就代表咱「完全無 beh
利用政府機構內底 [UTF-8?]礙 資源」�kia�m 是咱「完全無想 beh 促成政府政策 [UTF-8?]礙 tshui-sak
kap 改變？」
頂 [UTF-8?]ku璽n [UTF-8?]tsit-礙
[UTF-8?][UTF-8?]嚙賡咏嚙賢�暽斗酊 [UTF-8?][UTF-8?]�齢�嚙賡�隡剁蕭撘迎蕭 人，有資格 [UTF-8?][UTF-8?]khi嚙�-th蝪駐g-th蝪駐g
[UTF-8?][UTF-8?]huah-hi嚙練 i 無 beh [UTF-8?]hi羅 羅馬字整合，無 beh tshap KIP；若是
[UTF-8?][UTF-8?]蝛南嚙賢飃嚙� [UTF-8?][UTF-8?]嚙質剥嚙賢憚嚙� 人，或者是有 bat [UTF-8?]雿輻欟(�脚锋�綋��� beh 利用) 政府資源
�H [UTF-8?]礙 人，kap [UTF-8?]i獺u-koh 想 beh 造成政策改變 [UTF-8?]礙 人，beh
[UTF-8?][UTF-8?]��n-tsu�綽蕭嚙� 有立場 [UTF-8?]獺n-ne 講，我想 [UTF-8?][UTF-8?]b嚙�-h�n��u嚙踝蕭
>
上基本 [UTF-8?]礙 1 [UTF-�u?]暺靀伨嚗桖粭摨�瑽骛��祆��� [UTF-8?]礙
[UTF-8?][UTF-8?]嚙賜�嚙踝蕭�鳴蕭tio嚙篁 一致使用 KIP [UTF-8?][UTF-8?]嚙賢�嚙賢�暽扎��-ne tsiah [UTF-8?][UTF-8?]b嚙�
[UTF-8?][UTF-8?]h嚙緯g [UTF-8?][UTF-8?]khi嚙賢��皥蓥 [UTF-8?]獺 秀柱 in 刪除台語認證 [UTF-8?]礙 預算
[UTF-8?]礙 時，有起 1 [UTF-8?]礙 攔頭號做「拼音系統 [UTF-8?][UTF-8?]i��u-bu嚙�
[UTF-8?][UTF-8?]�鮋蕭嚙賣�嚙踝蕭�伐蕭�啗软朣乗抐霂縗�u嚙賡孕撗恬蕭�荔蕭k��m 講咱 beh 大大典典用行動證明 in [UTF-8?][UTF-8?]m嚙� �O teh
�m [UTF-8?][UTF-8?]hau-si��u�ⓞ蕭
�O 除非，咱有影按算 beh 據在
[UTF-8?]t�uit-礙 政府去舞，無 beh [UTF-8?][UTF-8?]the嚙篁 i 1 [UTF-8?]si獺n 錢，無 beh ka
sak ka [UTF-8?][UTF-8?]tu嚙篁�ⓘ�霈�--tsi�箏��渡� [UTF-8?][UTF-8?]tio嚙篁 翻頭想看咱 beh [UTF-8?][UTF-8?]khi嚙�
[UTF-8?][UTF-8?]si�綽蕭嚙�-mih 款立場。
2009/3/26 gmail
Goa siuN. Chit e bun-toe e-sai hun-choe kui-a
hong-bin lai su-kho:
- su-iong chia (khan-siap
lang-sou, LMJ i-goan, kap thai-tou)
- chhui-sak
chia (che si thai-tou bun-toe)
- koaN-hong (chit e
tan-ui m-bat chhui-sak koe LMJ)
Goa beh kong e
chu-iau si KIP [UTF-8?][UTF-8?]嚙糊ap che-teng TL e pou-hun:
TL kap POJ, i bok-chian kho-ki (tian-chu hoa)
lai-kong, choan-oaN si chin
kan-tan e tai-chi,
ia-toh-si tian-chu liu-thoan bo jim-ho e khun-lan (chhiaN
> chham-kho TG SBA), sou-i khoaN--khi-lai chi-si, su-sia kap
in-soat e
soan-tek bun-toe ji-i. Khin-hoaN hiaN
it-tit kong KIP kong-pou, lan tioh
long eng-kai
chiau cho. U I khou-sim e sou-chai. M-ku, goa jin-ui KMT e KIP
chu thau kau boe long m-bat ka lan tau-saN-kang
siaN-mih, lan ho-pit thiaN
in e. Lan pun-lai tioh-si
bin-kan e chu-hoat heng-tong. KoaN-hong bo
the-thiap
bin-cheng, che si sit-bin-chia e sim-thai. Lan beh khi hou I
au--khi. Ki-sit goa si chin m-goan. Koh chai kong,
che-teng TL e ui-goan,
tu-liau Khin-hoaN hiaN,
chi-goa kam koh u lang teh chhui-sak LMJ???? [UTF-8?][UTF-8?]嚙瘢n kam
bat sia koe TGB, iah-si jim-ho bun-chiuN kong beh
chhui-sak LMJ ??? [UTF-8?][UTF-8?]嚙瘢n
bo-lang teh
eng, choaN chai-iaN POJ kap TL e ho-bai, iah-si i-keng
> lau--loh-lai e chu-goan u siaN-mih. Koe-khi hun-tau e
seng-ko(ChhiaN
chham-kho Un-gian hiaN e bang-cham),
In oe 1 oe tioh long hu-siau. Chin
kho-oN!
> Chiau chit e pan-se, Lan bo-kho-leng u kian-choan e chit-jit.
Hit jit na beh
lai, in he KIP koaN-oan iu-koh lai 1
e hoe, ka Li hu-tiau. Chin kin, Chin
khoai!!!!
Sou-i goa jin-ui, Lan 1) seng chhui-kong LMJ su-sia
TGB 2) Su-iong
siong-choe chu-goan e POJ, ke-siok
cheng-ka POJ chu-goan. [UTF-8?][UTF-8?]嚙璀n-ni, chiu-sng
> KIP hoaiN-pa-pa, lan ma boe tng-kun khi. NA-si toe KIP,
chin-chiaN beh si
m-chai tang-si.
Khai
----- Original
Message -----
From: "Hak-khiam TiuN"
To:
"Tekhoa"
Cc:
"Taigibang"
Sent:
Tuesday, March 24, 2009 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: Fw:
[tgb] Re: TL kah POJ e chhiongtut
Tak-ke ho:
Ungian hiaN theh-chhut chit
e bun-te, goa siuN chin tat-tit tho-lun.
Tong-jian i
kong e POJ & TL e chhiong-tut chi-si POJ & TL koan-he e
chit-chiong.
E hong u chhiong-tut e
kam-kak ma chin ho li-kai, in-ui POJ & TL e
chi-chhi-chia u teng-thah,
koh ka-siong pun-te
su-iong POJ e Tai-bun chap-chi, c.c. Bong-po, TBTS
long kai-iong TL.
Chit-si-kan POJ soah bo saN
hoat-piau e khong-kan.
POJ & TL
leng-goa chit e kho-leng e koan-he si kiong-chun, hun-kang.
Bo su-iau ti chit 2 e he-thong soan-tek,
> 2 e long chi-chhi, m-koh ki-jian koaN-hong chi-chhi TL, ti
kau-iok
the-che, cheng-hu e kang-teng tioh chiau
cheng-hu
e kui-teng khi kiaN, chhun-e bin-kan e LMJ
ke-siok su-iong POJ, che si
goa chin-cheng thiaN
lang ka goa kong bi-lai
POJ & TL e koan-he,
chit-ma cho-liau an-choaN goa bo-kai chheng-chho.
Thui-sak TL e lang chin sin-khou, goa kan-ta ng-bang
m-thang ka POJ e chun-chai, su-iong tong-cho si TL thui-sak
sit-pai e
piau-si. Goa ko-jin e-tang tong-si
chi-chhi POJ & TL,
m-koh na iau-kiu goa hong-khi
POJ chiah sng si chi-chhi TL, goa jin-ui
bo pit-iau.
Goa tak-pai khi chheh-kiok na khoaN-tioh
koh u POJ e
ji-tian ah-si chheh chhut-pan long e chin hoaN-hi. Bun-ji
> e seN-mia-lek bo hoat-tou thau-koe cheng-hu e hoat-leng lai
ui-chhi,
bin-kan chu-hoat-seng e, tng-ki-e su-iong
chiah-si tiong-iau.
I-siong 2 chiong
POJ & TL e koan-he tak-ke bong chham-kho, kho-leng
> koh u ki-tha e kho-leng-seng.
Hak-khiam
- 2009/3/25 Tekhoa
Apang
hiaN kap tak-e:
goa chanseng
ai tholun
1) kian-na tu tioh
chit-khoan bunte, chong--si e u lang khng kong au-jit-a
> > chiah tholun
[UTF-8?][UTF-8?]嚙� [UTF-8?][UTF-8?]嚙�
kiatko iaubpe tan kau au-jit-a, bunte mna bo kaikoat, soah ju bun
ju
giamtiong
2) "hun-liat" chit-hang taichi punlai to bian
khoan kah hiah tang
[UTF-8?][UTF-8?]嚙� [UTF-8?][UTF-8?]嚙�
[UTF-8?][UTF-8?]嚙線i tioh thoankiat boai ka taichi kong beng,
> [UTF-8?][UTF-8?]嚙� [UTF-8?][UTF-8?]嚙� [UTF-8?][UTF-8?]嚙編itche siong tianto e checho
hunliat
3) chiaN
che lang long ittit kong TL iah si POJ tak-e beh sia toh 1 tho to
sia toh 1 tho
[UTF-8?][UTF-8?]嚙�
[UTF-8?][UTF-8?]嚙� kong si bo m-tioh, mkoh che oe soah ma siuN koe khang
[UTF-8?][UTF-8?]嚙� [UTF-8?][UTF-8?]嚙� na bo, si anchoaN e ittit u
iaukiu patlang sia/kai cho TL e chengheng
> chhut-hian?
4) tenghoe
tholun kau chit-e bunte e si, goa u the-chhut kong:
> [UTF-8?][UTF-8?]嚙� [UTF-8?][UTF-8?]嚙� si, bo mtioh, takl-e chuiu soantek beh
iong toh 1 tho
[UTF-8?][UTF-8?]嚙� [UTF-8?][UTF-8?]嚙� mkoh
tauko--chhut-khi toa pouhun e souchai long iaukiu ai iong TL
[UTF-8?][UTF-8?]嚙� [UTF-8?][UTF-8?]嚙� anne, chit khoan "chu-iu5"
u siaNmih i-gi?
Tekhoa
----- Original Message -----
寄件者: apang.chiu
收件者:
副本: TGB(G)
; Tavokan Kh㮮 Hu䁢ῠ ; Iunn Un-gian
傳送日期: 2009年3月24日 下午 11:45
主旨: [tgb] Re: TL kah POJ e chhiongtut
Kok-ui :
Sio-ti kian-gi pat-jit thang-lai tho-lun.
Lan bo hun-liat e pun.
Kat
thau ho* khui, m-thang lu phah lu an, pian si-kat,
> Kho-lu siong-se.
Pai-thok !
>
A-pang
> PS : Teng-koan/ting-kuan e gi-su POJ kap TL long e thong, kam
m-si?
ChhiaN/tshiann sam-su.
-----Original message-----
From:Kei TADA
To:Iunn Un-gian
Cc:Tai-gu-bang ,
Date:Tue,
24 Mar 2009 17:12:15 +0900
Subject:[tgb] Re: TL
kah POJ e chhiongtut
Ungian hiaN,
> Goa e chu-i Ungian hiaN sou the-khi chit-e bun-te.
> >
TLPA ah-si TL si, i POJ cho ki-chhou
e he-thong.
Su-iong TLPA
ah-si TL bo eng-kai ap-pek POJ e su-iong.
TL na jim-tong POJ cho i e bo-chhin, chi-chhi
POJ e lang chiah e chi-chhi
TL.
>
Lan na e-sai chham-u hun-hoa le?
> >
TADA
> 2009/3/24 Iunn Un-gian :
>> Takke ho :
Suijian chia e buntoe chincheng ikeng u tholun ke a, goa ma bo
siuNbeh ke
kong, mkoh kinajit koh hoatseng
1-koa taichi, jichhiaN kah KhinhoaN hiaN
u
koanhe.
> >> Goa chincheng hoanlo e, TL iahbe sengkong, goanlai
suiong POJ e lang soah
hun choe 2-phai.
Chite buntoe, khoaN khilai iahkoh si chin giamtiong.
>>
Goa chitma chin bo-eng, taichi
long cho boe oan, soui goa kholeng e 4/15
i-au, chhe sikan tiam Taigubang hoho-a lai kong chit kiaN taichi e
kengke,
kah goa e
siuNhoat.
Goa jim-ui
nasi chhuli bo ho, Tailohoe ma e chhuthian chenggi, choseng
TLH
e
>> hunliat. Si annoa goa e anne kong, inui chincheng
KhinhoaN hiaN bat
uitioh
>> TLH bo suiong TL, kong beh si lisu, chitma KhinhoaN hiaN
si TLH e
siong-bu
lisu, soui chit-e buntoe itteng e koh toa jipkhi TLH.
> >>
Suijian Taibunkoan hitpeng
jimtong goa e chohoat, mkoh choeau goa iong
POJ
sia e bunchiuN, pitsu ai kai cho TL.
LMJ susia hethong hiahni choe, 10
kui
tang chincheng, goa e LMJ hong kai choe
Thong-iong hengsek e LMJ, goa bat
kongkhai
khonggi, bo siuNtioh chitpai soah si hou kaki e lang kiongpek ai
siukai, goa boe kongkhai khonggi, mkoh
choattui e kongkhai tholun chit
chan
taichi.
> >> Inui goa jim-ui nasi bo tholun, POj e suiong e
kesiok hou TL appek. Lan
na
>> chaiiaN lan bo hunliat e punchiN, si annoa chitkhoan
taichi e itchai
hoatseng ?
>>
--
Iunn
Un-gian 楊允言
Tai-han Chu-kang-he Chou-li
kau-siu大漢資工系助理教授
(O) 03-821-0871
> >> [http://iug.csie.dahan.edu.tw](http://iug.csie.dahan.edu.tw/)
>>
> >
--
Lau, Seng-hian
[UTF-8?][UTF-8?]�梽�霈� koh 在定，ma [UTF-8?][UTF-8?]嚙賤锹蝎栁匮蝬剁蕭�椘蕭
--
Iunn Un-gian 楊允言
Tai-han Chu-kang-he Chou-li kau-siu大漢資工系助理教授
(O)
03-821-0871
--
Lau, Seng-hian
[UTF-8?]嚚靁访 koh 在定，ma [UTF-8?]�⊥粐憭綨�嚚�
--
Lau, Seng-hian
[UTF-8?]嚚靁访 koh
在定，ma [UTF-8?]�⊥粐憭綨�嚚�
--
Iunn Un-gian 楊允言
Tai-han Chu-kang-he Chou-li kau-siu大漢資工系助理教授
(O) 03-821-0871
--
Lau, Seng-hian
[UTF-8?]嚚靁访 koh
在定，ma [UTF-8?]�⊥粐憭綨�嚚�
--
Lau, Seng-hian
[UTF-8?]嚚靁访 koh 在定，ma
[UTF-8?]�⊥粐憭綨�嚚�
--
Iunn Un-gian 楊允言
Tai-han Chu-kang-he Chou-li kau-siu大漢資工系助理教授
(O) 03-821-0871
Re: Re: [tgb] Re: TL kah POJ e chhiongtut
From: Tekhoa
Date: 2009-04-03 15:58:06
Senghian hiaN
phaiNse, koe chiha ku chiah ka li hoe
- goa kong siuN ui-sim, i-su si kong, li iah si toh 1 e lang bo hoantui patlang iong POJ, kap chit kiaN taichi bo siaN koanhe
bo hoantui lang iong POJ u kong kap bo kong kangkhoan, bunte msi ti chia
si chit-ma ikeng hoatseng u lang teh chou-tong patlang iong POJ
goa ma si ti TG-bang chia chiah chai Ungian ma tu tioh chit khoan chengheng
chincheng goa to bat thiaN lang kong--koe-a
- tong-chhou-si kong beh liansu, iah si au-lai e kong-hoat
long si kong TL si beh ti kau-iok theche laite hoattian iong--e
taN lai, soah m-na si anne--a
ham ti sia-hoe chan-bin e khong-kan ma ittit piNcho ai kai iong TL
- goa ki chitma chham-u Tamchui chia hoan2 Tam7-pak to7-lou e le
koaNhong ittit kong khi chit tiau lou si lim-si-seng e the-tai lou-soaN
mkoh na hou khi2--khi-lai, au-pai Tai5-2-soaN hun-khoah liau i kam e thiah-tiau?
koh, chun u thiah-tiau, khoan-keng kam u kholeng hoehok goan-chong?
iong che kaktou lai khoaN
untong siong, tiaN-tian kong seng seh--1-e, oat--1-e
mkoh su-sit siong oat---1-e to seh be tng--lai-a
chiu TL kap POJ lai kong
na tak-e chitma long kai iong TL
msi besai, mkoh bian koh kong bo hoantui POJ
inui kauiok the-che iong--loh, goakhau e tak-e ma iong--loh
beh koh seh hoan-thau tng--lai kinpun si bo kholeng--e
- Taioan e untong-kai long si-kiaN au e koe to li e
chit e chengheng ju lau ju beng-hian
pau-khoah kong beh chin-jip the-che hoan the-che soah pin-cho teh i-hou ROC
ka ROC ham taioan lam-lam chohoe hut be chheng-chhou
- the-che lai e chugoan goa bo hoantui mai ka iong
mkoh chian-te kap liptiuN na long thohiap hongkhi--a
anne chun u theh tioh hiah-e chu-goan si koh etang anchoaN?
be-cheng-be to seng ka kati iam--khi-lai-a, kam msi?
koh, si msi theh tioh chu-goan, ti the-che lai u ju toa eng-hiong-lat e lang
lan to ai phoe-hap--i, toe i kiaN
bo, tosi bo thoan-kiat? bo kou toa-kiok?
seng kong kau chia, chiah koh tholun
Tekhoa
----- Original Message -----
寄件者: Lau Seng-hian
收件者: 台語網
傳送日期: 2009年3月25日 下午 04:53
主旨: [tgb] Re: TL kah POJ e chhiongtut
Tekhoa,
你講 tioh 我無了解 e 部份，請 thiah 白
多謝！
Seng-hian
2009/3/25 Tekhoa
Seng-hian hiaN
li e kong-hoat siuN-koe ui-sim--a (唯心)
Tekhoa
----- Original Message -----
**寄件者:**
Lau Seng-hian
**收件者:** 台語網
**傳送日期:** 2009年3月25日 下午 03:20
**主旨:** [tgb] Re: TL kah POJ e chhiongtut
Un-gian 兄：
你講「chiiau lan beh suiong Taibun, in to e iong chiokhau ka lan chhe mahoan」，tse 真正確，我完全贊成，若你所問 e 問題，我頭前 e 文章已經回答--過-a：我當然無 beh 放棄台文，而且無 beh 放棄 kap in hit 陣殖民主義者爭取 tsiah-e 公資源（he long 是咱納 e 稅金--neh，咱 to iau 無學 Thoreau 實行公民無服從 tsuann-a 無 beh 納稅--leh）。
Kah 若咱無 beh 放棄 kap in ti 公機構內底 sio 戰（咱 ma 實際上按呢 teh 做--ah，無，咱是按怎發動遊行去抗議台語認證預算刪除？），咱當然 ai「親像蛇 hiah-nih 靈巧，親像粉鳥 hiah-nih 馴良」，thah 有理由 ka-ti 做球 hoo 對敵來 phah e 可能性？
我 koh 說明--1-pai，我所講--e，單純是「公部門 e 出版品 e 書寫系統」，m 是 beh 講 thong 台灣 thong 世界 e 台文書寫系統。
承接頂頭 tsit 段：事實是，無人 beh 消滅傳統 POJ，ti tsit-e 社會背景--nih，ma 無可能透過法律、暴力來消滅傳統 POJ，當然，有人可能 e 講：資源分配 kap 公部門規範就牽涉著象徵暴力（symbolic violence)，總--是，咱若 beh 按呢問，請先翻頭想看咱 kam beh 放棄介入公部門運作，咱 kam 無想 beh ka tsit-e 文化資本再生產 e 力量 ka seh 轉頭，tshue 機會 ka tsit-e ke-si 搶--過-來。（完全體制外 e 運動若 beh 成功，ti tsit-e 媒體 kap 教育普及 e 背景--nih，只有流血暴力革命，m 知 kam 有人有決心、有興趣 mai kan-tann 用 tshui 唇皮，beh 親身去試？）
傳統 POJ 無受著 Un-gian 兄你所講 e hit 款驚--人 e 壓迫 e 事實是：你 kap 有志所做 e 濟濟 POJ e 資源，包括網路、出版品等等，long iau teh 運作、成長。 Hak-khiam 兄講 i 看著有新 e POJ 出版品 tsiok 歡喜--e，我 ma 是 sio-siang--ah！
上尾，關係分做兩派 e 問題，請 tak-e m-thang be 記得 1 件代誌，tann e TL 支持者內底，除了原底使用傳統 POJ e 人，koh 有過去使用 TLPA 等其他系統 e 人，換話來講，若以 POJ e 角度來看，是使用 POJ e 人變 khah 濟--a，使用其他系統 e 人變 khah 少--a，咱 kam 有分派？我看著--e，是咱 e 整合有效果，咱 tioh khah 細 ji 來維持 tsit-e 成果，ti 政府 kap 民間 tsit 兩部份，繼續 kap 壓迫台文 e 人鬥爭 tsiah tioh。
2009/3/25 Iunn Un-gian
Seng-hian :
Goa beh kong e si, chiiau lan beh suiong Taibun, in to e iong chiokhau ka lan chhe mahoan, sou-i goa jim-ui, kasu lan boai hou in kihoe ka lan chhe mahoan, uiit e honghoat tosi hongkhi Taibun, che tongjian paukoah hongkhi TL, anne li kam beh ? Nasi li kianchhi beh suiong Taibun, goa kiangi li mai iong Ang a siuthiau kong e liiu lai tholun chit-e buntoe.
seksu lunbun, phoksu lunbun, iahkoh kongpoumng e chhutpanphin, li kam kahkteng Khehoe kah Goanchubingu e susia hethong long it-ti ? Goa siuN si bo-iaN lah. Kijian bo-iaN, Taigu e bo itti na e piNchoe hiahni siongtiong e taichi ?
Taigu e pouhun, tuliau TL, KIP ma u pan Taigu phengim pisai, iahkoh u kongpou 400 jisu a, suijian kau chitma goa mbat khoaN tioh Taigubang to 1 e lang u chunchiau KIP e Hanji kuihoan tih suiong, paukoah KhinhoaN hiaN. 1-hong-bin, KIP e hanji kuihoan lan iah bo beh chun-siu, 1-hong-bin, koh u lang kiongliat iaukiu lan ai chunsiu KIP TL e kuihoan, che kam bo chhiongtut ?
Suijian luisu e buntoe lan chincheng ikeng kong ke a, chong--si, KhinhoaN hiaN mna 1-pai thekhi, TL thuisak hiahni khunlan, tosi lin chia e long bo beh chichhi. Goa jim-ui thuisak untong sinkhou, lang ma long u cheng-su, kamkah koh tholun ma bo tekpiat e igi, chong--si, chang hoatseng e taichi, ikeng chhiauke goa etang jim-siu e thengtou a. Goa chinchiaN jim-ui, anne bu lohkhi, TL iahbe thuisak sengkong, goanlai POJ e lang ikeng hunchoe 2-phai.
Kisit, chhiaN takke lai siatsiong taichi e ianpian, goa kong goa kojin to ho. 1-khoan si, goa suiong POJ, chhekliok siong goa ma chichhi TL (che si goa goanlai e phahsng) lenggoa 1-khoan chengheng si, goa hong ap-pek boetang suiong POJ, ai kai cho TL, liauau goa khaisi sia bunchiuN phoepheng chichhi TL e lang e luntiam, koh ka goa koanli e bangcham iukoan TL e pouhun longchong theh tiau.
Takke khah hibong khoaNtioh siaNme khoan e kiatko ? Goa kamkah KhinhoaN hiaN ittit beh pek goa kiaN te 2 tiau lou, suijian goa iah bo siuNbeh anne cho.
KhinhoaN hiaN bat ka goa kong, lan e Taigubun untong e sitpai, longsi inui lan kaki e lang. Che ma chiaNchiaN si goa e simsiaN, chisi i jim-ui e hia e lang, kah goa jim-ui e hia e lang, si bokang 1-tin lang.
Ungian 3.25
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009 14:15:38 +0800, Lau Seng-hian wrote
> Ún-giân 兄： > > 「系統無一致」，是洪 á 秀柱 in ê
藉口內底 ê 1 ê，當然 m̄ 是 in 心內正港 ê 理由，我 ê 意思是：咱 kám 有必要替 in 製造機會 hō͘ in 起
khang 起 sún？ > > 第二，我所講 ê「一致」，是指「政府／公部門」出版品頂 kuân 書寫系統 ê
一致，m̄ 是指通台灣一致，你舉 Hak-fa kap 原住民語 ê 例，請想看 māi：Hak-fa kap 原住民語辦認證 tsìn 前，是
m̄ 是 mā 有透過程序做書寫系統 ê 規範？另外，「政府／公部門」ê 出版品內底，kám 有可能無照政府本身所公佈 ê 書寫系統？ 因為
m̄ 管按怎講，「政府」有 teh 出面辦 tsiah-ê 認證考試，kám m̄ 是？ > > 請
m̄-thang 誤解，我當然無 kā 顧面桶取消 hō͘ 母語 tshui-sak ê 政府資源，來怪罪無使用 TL ê 人，tse 無合
tī 我頭前 hit 篇文章 ê 意思，另外，關係李勤岸老師 ê 部份，我無法度替伊發言，我 kan-taⁿ ē-tàng 講我 ka-tī ê
想法。 >
《台文 BONG 報》kap《台文通訊》lóng 是民間機構，政府對 in ê 刊物發行無用資源支持，in ê 編輯、政策，是董事會等來做決定，封殺傳統 POJ ê 發表空間，相信 m̄ 是 in 採用 TL ê 目標。
> > 2009/3/25 Lau Seng-hian >
Ún-giân
兄： > > 「系統無一致」，是洪 á 秀柱 in ê 藉口內底 ê 1 ê，當然 m̄ 是 in 心內正港 ê
理由，我 ê 意思是：咱 kám 有必要替 in 製造機會 hō͘ in 起 khang 起 sún？ > >
第二，我所講 ê「一致」，是指「政府／公部門」出版品頂 kuân 書寫系統 ê 一致，m̄ 是指通台灣一致，你舉 Hak-fa kap
原住民語 ê 例，請想看 māi：Hak-fa kap 原住民語辦認證 tsìn 前，是 m̄ 是 mā 有透過程序做書寫系統 ê
規範？另外，「政府／公部門」ê 出版品內底，kám 有可能無照政府本身所公佈 ê 書寫系統？ 因為 m̄ 管按怎講，「政府」有 teh
出面辦 tsiah-ê 認證考試，kám m̄ 是？ > > 請 m̄-thang 誤解，我當然無 kā
顧面桶取消 hō͘ 母語 tshui-sak ê 政府資源，來怪罪無使用 TL ê 人，tse 無合 tī 我頭前 hit 篇文章 ê
意思，另外，關係李勤岸老師 ê 部份，我無法度替伊發言，我 kan-taⁿ ē-tàng 講我 ka-tī ê 想法。 >
《台文 BONG 報》kap《台文通訊》lóng 是民間機構，政府對
2009/3/25 Iunn Un-gian
Seng-hian :
Kasu suiong bo it-ti to boesai pan jim-cheng, goa e siuNhoat si
(1) Hoagu boesai pan jim-cheng (Kok-hau ka chu-im, tengbin u e sak Thongiong, u e sak Hangu phengim, binkan ma iahkoh kui lo tho (2) Khehoe kah Goanchubingu ma boesai pan jim-cheng.
Nasi chite liiu senglip, goa siuN, KhinhoaN hiaN chit-si-lang bo kholeng tan tioh Taigu jim-cheng e keng-hui.
Goa boetang liongkai e si, lin ho-pit ka Kok-bin-tong boai poah Taigu jim-cheng kenghui hou lan, koaichoe ti sia Taigu, mkoh bo suiong TL e lang !
Kasu lin ka bo iong TL sia Taigu e lang e hoatpiau khongkan long hongsat, chhun boai sia Taibun, mkoh kholeng khauthau chichhi TL e lang, Taigu jim-cheng e kenghui simsi to e lohlai ? Taigubun untong nasi chengkeng kiaN kau chit e toe-pou, li kam jim-ui thuisak TL si sengkong e ?
Ungian 3.25
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009 13:38:46 +0800, Lau Seng-hian wrote
我 [UTF-8?]礙 想法:
顧面桶 tik 實 [UTF-8?]b� 信用--得。就親像 [UTF-8?]Ha法-khiam 兄 kap [UTF-8?]J贖-kh獺i [UTF-8?]�栋�雓�--礙嚗鉴県�嗥钏�� beh 放棄民間 [UTF-8?]礙 力量，總--是，咱 [UTF-8?]獺n-ne 講 [UTF-8?]礙 [UTF-8?]�恠�k獺m 就代表咱「完全無 beh 利用政府機構內底 [UTF-8?]礙 資源」，iah 是咱「完全�k�Q beh 促成政府政策 [UTF-8?]礙 tshui-sak kap 改變？」頂 [UTF-8?]ku璽n [UTF-8?]tsit-礙 [UTF-8?]�镣�嚗鹤�n [UTF-8?]雓�霁伨�弪� 人，有資格 [UTF-8?]khi�-th簾ng-th簾ng �nUTF-8?]huah-hi鄉 i �L�Hbeh [UTF-8?]hi羅 羅馬字整合，無 beh tshap KIP；若是 [UTF-8?]穫n�嗫� [UTF-8?]�胯�弪� 人，或者是有 bat 使用(∕爭取∕想 beh 利用) 政府資源 [UTF-8?]礙 人，kap [UT�H-8?]i獺u-koh 想 beh 造成政策改變 [UTF-8?]礙 人，beh [UTF-8?]獺n-tsu獺�� 有立場 [UTF-8?]獺n-ne 講，我想 [UTF-8?]b�-hi獺u��
> > 上基本 [UTF-8?]礙 1 點是：政府機構∕公機關 [UTF-8?]礙 [UTF-8?]�箇��睻�tio去 一致使用 KIP [UTF-8?]�啁�嚗鹤》-ne tsiah [UTF-8?]b� [UTF�t8?]h要g [UTF-8?]khi�嚗霁揪 [UTF-8?]獺 秀柱 in 刪除台語認證 [UTF-8?]礙 預算 [UTF-8?]礙 時，有起 1 [UTF-8?]礙 攔頭號做「拼音系統 [UTF-8?]i獺u-bu� [UTF-8?]銝��湛��⊥�閰脰齒隤诎��饥岫��O�k獺m 講咱 beh 大大典典用行動證明 in [UTF-8?]m� �O teh [UTF-8?]hau-�Oi�ku嚗� > > 除非，咱有影按算 beh 據在 �O [UTF-8?]tsit-礙 政府去舞，無 beh [UTF-8?]the多 i 1 [UTF-8?]si獺n 錢，無 beh ka sak ka [UTF-8?]tu多嚗鞑访--tsi獺嚗鉴県 [UTF-8?]tio去 翻頭想看咱 beh [UTF-8?]khi� [UTF-8?]si獺��-mih 款立場。2009/3/26 gmail
Goa siuN. Chit e bun-toe e-sai hun-choe kui-a hong-bin lai su-kho:
- su-iong chia (khan-siap lang-sou, LMJ i-goan, kap thai-tou)
- chhui-sak chia (che si thai-tou bun-toe)
- koaN-hong (chit e tan-ui m-bat chhui-sak koe LMJ) Goa beh kong e chu-iau si KIP [UTF-8?]法ap che-teng TL e pou-hun:
TL kap POJ, i bok-chian kho-ki (tian-chu hoa) lai-kong, choan-oaN si chin kan-tan e tai-chi, ia-toh-si tian-chu liu-thoan bo jim-ho e khun-lan (chhiaN
> chham-kho TG SBA), sou-i khoaN--khi-lai chi-si, su-sia kap in-soat e > soan-tek bun-toe ji-i. Khin-hoaN hiaN it-tit kong KIP kong-pou, lan tioh > long eng-kai chiau cho. U I khou-sim e sou-chai. M-ku, goa jin-ui KMT e KIP
chu thau kau boe long m-bat ka lan tau-saN-kang siaN-mih, lan ho-pit thiaN in e. Lan pun-lai tioh-si bin-kan e chu-hoat heng-tong. KoaN-hong bo the-thiap bin-cheng, che si sit-bin-chia e sim-thai. Lan beh khi hou I
au--khi. Ki-sit goa si chin m-goan. Koh chai kong, che-teng TL e ui-goan, tu-liau Khin-hoaN hiaN, chi-goa kam koh u lang teh chhui-sak LMJ???? [UTF-8?]點n kam
bat sia koe TGB, iah-si jim-ho bun-chiuN kong beh chhui-sak LMJ ??? [UTF-8?]點n
bo-lang teh eng, choaN chai-iaN POJ kap TL e ho-bai, iah-si i-keng
> lau--loh-lai e chu-goan u siaN-mih. Koe-khi hun-tau e seng-ko(ChhiaN > chham-kho Un-gian hiaN e bang-cham), In oe 1 oe tioh long hu-siau. Chin > kho-oN! > Chiau chit e pan-se, Lan bo-kho-leng u kian-choan e chit-jit. Hit jit na beh > lai, in he KIP koaN-oan iu-koh lai 1 e hoe, ka Li hu-tiau. Chin kin, Chin > khoai!!!!
Sou-i goa jin-ui, Lan 1) seng chhui-kong LMJ su-sia TGB 2) Su-iong siong-choe chu-goan e POJ, ke-siok cheng-ka POJ chu-goan. [UTF-8?]你n-ni, chiu-sng
> KIP hoaiN-pa-pa, lan ma boe tng-kun khi. NA-si toe KIP, chin-chiaN beh si > m-chai tang-si. >
Khai
----- Original Message ----- From: "Hak-khiam TiuN"
To: "Tekhoa"
Cc: "Taigibang"
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 7:03 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [tgb] Re: TL kah POJ e chhiongtutTak-ke ho:Ungian hiaN theh-chhut chit e bun-te, goa siuN chin tat-tit tho-lun. Tong-jian i kong e POJ & TL e chhiong-tut chi-si POJ & TL koan-he e
chit-chiong. E hong u chhiong-tut e kam-kak ma chin ho li-kai, in-ui POJ & TL e
chi-chhi-chia u teng-thah, koh ka-siong pun-te su-iong POJ e Tai-bun chap-chi, c.c. Bong-po, TBTS long kai-iong TL. Chit-si-kan POJ soah bo saN hoat-piau e khong-kan.POJ & TL leng-goa chit e kho-leng e koan-he si kiong-chun, hun-kang.
Bo su-iau ti chit 2 e he-thong soan-tek,
> 2 e long chi-chhi, m-koh ki-jian koaN-hong chi-chhi TL, ti kau-iok > the-che, cheng-hu e kang-teng tioh chiau cheng-hu > e kui-teng khi kiaN, chhun-e bin-kan e LMJ ke-siok su-iong POJ, che si > goa chin-cheng thiaN lang ka goa kong bi-lai > POJ & TL e koan-he, chit-ma cho-liau an-choaN goa bo-kai chheng-chho. > Thui-sak TL e lang chin sin-khou, goa kan-ta ng-bang > m-thang ka POJ e chun-chai, su-iong tong-cho si TL thui-sak sit-pai e > piau-si. Goa ko-jin e-tang tong-si chi-chhi POJ & TL, > m-koh na iau-kiu goa hong-khi POJ chiah sng si chi-chhi TL, goa jin-ui > bo pit-iau. Goa tak-pai khi chheh-kiok na khoaN-tioh > koh u POJ e ji-tian ah-si chheh chhut-pan long e chin hoaN-hi. Bun-ji > e seN-mia-lek bo hoat-tou thau-koe cheng-hu e hoat-leng lai ui-chhi, > bin-kan chu-hoat-seng e, tng-ki-e su-iong chiah-si tiong-iau. > > I-siong 2 chiong POJ & TL e koan-he tak-ke bong chham-kho, kho-leng > koh u ki-tha e kho-leng-seng. > > Hak-khiam > > 2009/3/25 Tekhoa : > > Apang hiaN kap tak-e: > > > > goa chanseng ai tholun > > > > 1) kian-na tu tioh chit-khoan bunte, chong--si e u lang khng kong au-jit-a > > chiah tholun > > [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� kiatko iaubpe tan kau au-jit-a, bunte mna bo kaikoat, soah ju bun jugiamtiong
2) "hun-liat" chit-hang taichi punlai to bian khoan kah hiah tang [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]真i tioh thoankiat boai ka taichi kong beng,
> [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]群itche siong tianto e checho hunliat3) chiaN che lang long ittit kong TL iah si POJ tak-e beh sia toh 1 tho to
sia toh 1 tho [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� kong si bo m-tioh, mkoh che oe soah ma siuN koe khang
[UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� na bo, si anchoaN e ittit u iaukiu patlang sia/kai cho TL e chengheng
> chhut-hian? > > 4) tenghoe tholun kau chit-e bunte e si, goa u the-chhut kong: > [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� si, bo mtioh, takl-e chuiu soantek beh iong toh 1 tho > [UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� mkoh tauko--chhut-khi toa pouhun e souchai long iaukiu ai iong TL
[UTF-8?]� [UTF-8?]� anne, chit khoan "chu-iu5" u siaNmih i-gi?
Tekhoa ----- Original Message ----- 寄件者: apang.chiu
收件者:
副本: TGB(G) ; Tavokan Kh㮮 Hu䁢ῠ ; Iunn Un-gian
傳送日期: 2009年3月24日 下午 11:45
主旨: [tgb] Re: TL kah POJ e chhiongtut Kok-ui :
Sio-ti kian-gi pat-jit thang-lai tho-lun.
Lan bo hun-liat e pun. Kat thau ho* khui, m-thang lu phah lu an, pian si-kat,
> Kho-lu siong-se. > Pai-thok ! > > A-pang > > PS : Teng-koan/ting-kuan e gi-su POJ kap TL long e thong, kam m-si? > ChhiaN/tshiann sam-su. > -----Original message----- > From:Kei TADA > To:Iunn Un-gian > Cc:Tai-gu-bang , > Date:Tue, 24 Mar 2009 17:12:15 +0900 > Subject:[tgb] Re: TL kah POJ e chhiongtut > >
Ungian hiaN,
> Goa e chu-i Ungian hiaN sou the-khi chit-e bun-te.> > > > TLPA ah-si TL si, i POJ cho ki-chhou e he-thong. > > > > Su-iong TLPA ah-si TL bo eng-kai ap-pek POJ e su-iong. > >
TL na jim-tong POJ cho i e bo-chhin, chi-chhi POJ e lang chiah e chi-chhi TL.
> > Lan na e-sai chham-u hun-hoa le?> > > > TADA > > > > 2009/3/24 Iunn Un-gian : > >> Takke ho : > >> > >> Suijian chia e buntoe chincheng ikeng u tholun ke a, goa ma bo siuNbeh ke > >> kong, mkoh kinajit koh hoatseng 1-koa taichi, jichhiaN kah KhinhoaN hiaN > >> u
koanhe.
> >> Goa chincheng hoanlo e, TL iahbe sengkong, goanlai suiong POJ e lang soah > >> hun choe 2-phai. Chite buntoe, khoaN khilai iahkoh si chin giamtiong. > >> > >> Goa chitma chin bo-eng, taichi long cho boe oan, soui goa kholeng e 4/15 > >> i-au, chhe sikan tiam Taigubang hoho-a lai kong chit kiaN taichi e
kengke, kah goa e siuNhoat.
Goa jim-ui nasi chhuli bo ho, Tailohoe ma e chhuthian chenggi, choseng
TLH e
>> hunliat. Si annoa goa e anne kong, inui chincheng KhinhoaN hiaN bat >> uitioh >> TLH bo suiong TL, kong beh si lisu, chitma KhinhoaN hiaN si TLH e >> siong-bu >> lisu, soui chit-e buntoe itteng e koh toa jipkhi TLH.> >> > >> Suijian Taibunkoan hitpeng jimtong goa e chohoat, mkoh choeau goa iong > >> POJ > >> sia e bunchiuN, pitsu ai kai cho TL. LMJ susia hethong hiahni choe, 10 > >> kui
tang chincheng, goa e LMJ hong kai choe Thong-iong hengsek e LMJ, goa bat kongkhai khonggi, bo siuNtioh chitpai soah si hou kaki e lang kiongpek ai
siukai, goa boe kongkhai khonggi, mkoh choattui e kongkhai tholun chit chan
taichi.
> >> Inui goa jim-ui nasi bo tholun, POj e suiong e kesiok hou TL appek. Lan > >> na > >> chaiiaN lan bo hunliat e punchiN, si annoa chitkhoan taichi e itchai > >> hoatseng ? > >> > >> -- > >> Iunn Un-gian 楊允言 > >> Tai-han Chu-kang-he Chou-li kau-siu大漢資工系助理教授 > >> (O) 03-821-0871 > >> [http://iug.csie.dahan.edu.tw](http://iug.csie.dahan.edu.tw/) > >> > >> > > >>
> > > > > > > >
-- Lau, Seng-hian [UTF-8?]嚚靁访 koh 在定，ma [UTF-8?]�⊥粐憭綨�嚚�
-- Iunn Un-gian 楊允言
Tai-han Chu-kang-he Chou-li kau-siu大漢資工系助理教授 (O) 03-821-0871 http://iug.csie.dahan.edu.tw
-- Lau, Seng-hian
～無 koh 在定，ma 無放外外～
-- Lau, Seng-hian
～無 koh 在定，ma 無放外外～
-- Iunn Un-gian 楊允言
Tai-han Chu-kang-he Chou-li kau-siu大漢資工系助理教授 (O) 03-821-0871
-- Lau, Seng-hian
～無 koh 在定，ma 無放外外～
-- Lau, Seng-hian
～無 koh 在定，ma 無放外外～